<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">dear Raffaele,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">About the Oceanic languages of Northwest Melanesia (spoken on New Guinea island), I recommend the following article by Malcolm Ross:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><ul><li>Ross, Malcolm. 1998. Possessive-like attribute constructions in the Oceanic languages of Northwest Melanesia. <br><i>Oceanic Linguistics </i>37 (2), December 1998. 234–276. <font size="1"><a href="https://doi.org/10.2307/3623410">https://doi.org/10.2307/3623410</a></font></li></ul></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">best,</div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><font size="2">Alex</font></span><hr style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" width="70" size="1" noshade align="left"><p style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif"><font size="2"><span style="color:rgb(69,129,142)">Alex François</span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></p><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="text-decoration:none" href="http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">LaTTiCe</a> — <a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://www.cnrs.fr/index.html" rel="noopener" target="_blank">CNRS–</a></span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094" rel="noopener" target="_blank">ENS</a></span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none">–</span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://www.psl.eu/en" rel="noopener" target="_blank">PSL</a></span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none">–</span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://www.univ-paris3.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Sorbonne nouvelle</a><br></span><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://researchprofiles.anu.edu.au/en/persons/alex-francois" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Australian National University</a></font><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><br></span></font></span></font></span><div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Personal homepage</a><br></span></font></span></div><div><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___</font><br><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span></div></div></div></div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">Guillaume Jacques via Lingtyp</strong> <span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>></span><br>Date: Fri, 31 May 2024 at 11:13<br>Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] The type "la bellezza di cento euro"<br>To: Raffaele Simone <<a href="mailto:raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it">raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it</a>><br>Cc: <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Raffaele,</div><div><br></div><div>In Japhug (Sino-Tibetan, Rgyalrongic), we find exactly the same type of structure (though not with the same word order within the noun phrase as in Romance languages), I call these nouns "property nouns", they are inalienably possessed nouns, which take a possessive prefix (1, 2). They are mainly derogative.<br></div><div><br></div><div>(1) ɯ-do </div><div>3sɡ.poss-old.thing<br></div><div>"an old thing" <br></div><div><br></div><div>(2) ɯ-ɴqra</div><div>3sɡ.poss-broken.one</div><div>"something broken"<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>(3) and (4) illustrate the construction that you are lookinf for:</div><div><br></div><div>(3) nɯŋa ɯ-do</div><div>cow 3sɡ.poss-old.thing</div><div>"An old cow" = "An old thing of a cow"</div><div><br></div><div>(4) kʰa ɯ-ɴqra</div><div>house 3sɡ.poss-broken.one</div><div>"A shabby house, a house in ruin" = "A broken thing of a house" <br></div><div><br></div><div>This is the most common possessive construction in Japhug, encoded by a possessive prefix on the possessum.<br></div><div><br></div><div>See the description pp 119-122, p 792 of the Japhug grammar: <a href="https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295" target="_blank">https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295</a></div><div><br></div><div>For instance example (22) p. 119, which contains (4)<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div><br></div><div>Guillaume<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le ven. 31 mai 2024 à 10:39, Raffaele Simone via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<div lang="IT">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear colleagues and friends,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">in Italian and other Romance languages there is a binominal NP structure as in the following examples:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;font-variant:small-caps">italian<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1">
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ho speso
<u>la bellezza</u> di cento euro<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I have spent
<u>the beauty</u> of one hundred euros<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“I spent a good one hundred euros”<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="2" type="1">
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ho pagato questa casa
<u>la miseria</u> di centomila euro<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I have paid this house
<u>the misery</u> of one hundred thousand euros. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“I paid a paltry one hundred thousand euros for this house”
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="3" type="1">
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ha sposato
<u>un tesoro</u> di ragazzo<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">She has married
<u>a treasure</u> of boy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“She married a darling boy”<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="4" type="1">
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Faccio
<u>uno schifo</u> di lavoro<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I do
<u>a crap</u> of job<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“I have a crap job”<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> The NP is structured as follows:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">A specifier + N1, a sort of “Light Noun” indicating a positive or negative property (<i>bellezza</i>,
<i>tesoro</i>, <i>schifo</i> ecc.) of N2 + <i>di </i>+ N2, a noun representing the “semantic phrase head”, which the property indicated by N1 refers to.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From the predicative point of view, the quality attributed to N2 is not encoded by an adjective or sim. but is transferred to N1.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Other constraints:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">a. the list of the possible N1 is very limited;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">b. some N1 (as
<i>bellezza</i> in 1, <i>miseria </i>in 2) don’t indicate a property but refer to an amount, so working as indefinite quantifiers.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Could you indicate to me similar NP structures in other languages?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thanks.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Raffaele (Simone)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">PS For Light Words, See Simone, R. & F. Masini. 2014. “On Light Nouns”.
</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">In Simone, R. & F. Masini (eds).
<i>Word Classes</i>. 51-74. Amsterdam & Philadelphia: John Benjamins.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">==============<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Emeritus Professor, Università Roma Tre<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Hon C Lund University<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Membre de l'Académie Royale de Belgique<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres de France<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Accademico (corrispondente) della Crusca<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Prix de l'Institut de France-Fondation Bonnefous 2022<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">===============<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Attività e pubblicazioni // Activity and publications
</span><a href="http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:blue">http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone</span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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</div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Guillaume Jacques</div><div><br></div><div>Directeur de recherches<br>CNRS (CRLAO) - EPHE- INALCO <br></div><div><a href="https://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=1XCp2-oAAAAJ&hl=fr" target="_blank">https://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=1XCp2-oAAAAJ&hl=fr</a><br></div><div><a href="http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques" target="_blank">https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295</a></div><div><div><a href="http://panchr.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank">http://panchr.hypotheses.org/</a></div></div></div></div>
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