<div dir="ltr">Martin,<div><br></div><div>I am not sure how to operationalize the notions of accusative and ergative in this context. Assuming one uses the standard procedure of comparing the bivalent pattern to the intransitive one, I guess some unmarked antipassive constructions would qualify. Thus, in Mehweb Dargwa, East Caucasian, which lacks regular antipassive derivation, the verb 'carry' has two alternative valencies:</div><div><br></div><div>Agent-Erg carries Theme-Nom (ergative pattern <i>on the basis of comparison</i> with X goes)</div><div>Agent-Nom carries Theme-Erg (accusative pattern <i>on the bases of comparison</i> with X goes)</div><div><br></div><div>But, <i>on the basis of comparison</i> with other transitive verbs, the second pattern is intransitive, so this would not qualify as accusative in the usual sense. Yet, I do not clearly see what would be possible other grounds to identify an ergative / accusative alternation, even in the presence of a TAM or animacy based split, because in your requirement these variables should be controlled for. </div><div><br></div><div>This is different from the situation of secundative / indirective alternation, which is possible to identify in a language because they are identified on alignment-independent grounds (comparison to the encoding of P). Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how this is done in the case of the putative ergative / accusative uncoded alternation. </div><div><br></div><div>Misha<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вс, 30 июн. 2024 г. в 14:48, Peter Austin via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div dir="auto">Assuming you do not mean TAM-based split ergativity, e.g. Pitta-Pitta.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Best</div>
<div dir="auto">Peter</div>
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<div id="m_2791204385624991659divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2024 1:41:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation</font>
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<div>Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know of a language that has been described as exhibiting an <br>
accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where verbs with meanings like <br>
'break' or 'chase' can occur in two constructions such as (1) and (2) <br>
(which are schematic examples, not English)?<br>
<br>
(1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br>
<br>
(2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br>
<br>
Such an alternation would be analogous to indirective/secundative <br>
alternations, as in the schematic examples (3) and (4).<br>
<br>
(3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they provided food to us')<br>
<br>
(4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they provided us with food')<br>
<br>
While indirective/secundative alternations have been described <br>
repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations are little-known, and seem <br>
to be quite rare. Is this impression correct?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eva.mpg.de%2Flinguistic-and-cultural-evolution%2Fstaff%2Fmartin-haspelmath%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cpa2%40mysoas.onmicrosoft.com%7Cfbd0d937e0024454098608dc99021b32%7C674dd0a1ae6242c7a39f69ee199537a8%7C0%7C0%7C638553481531300351%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Fk%2BOgeldXwuKKViruD6L3V%2BAXojpaM2NZAuKlpWpHdk%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
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