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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=FR link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Martin,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I fully agree with Matthew’s remark. This is precisely the position I defend explicitly in my forthcoming book on ‘Transitivity, valency and voice’. The only thing that matters is that, TAKEN TOGETHER, the patterns analyzed as transitive because none of them shows evidence of detransitivization are dominant. This is the only way to deal consistently not only with so-called symmetrical voice systems, but also with systems involving differential coding of A or P.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If you accept this idea, BINARY symmetrical voice systems such as that of Balinese as analyzed in Arka’s works (but NOT the Philipinne-type systems of symmetrical voices) illustrate what you are looking for, since in Balinese, the agent voice construction and the patient voice construction equally qualify as transitive, and the alignment with intransitive verbal predication is S = A in the agent voice, and S = P in the patient voice.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Denis<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Lingtyp [mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org] <b>De la part de</b> Matthew Dryer via Lingtyp<br><b>Envoyé :</b> lundi 1 juillet 2024 19:01<br><b>À :</b> Martin Haspelmath; LINGTYP LINGTYP<br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>Martin,</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>I don’t understand why you say “<span style='color:#212121'>by definition, a transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the cases)”. Why can there not be two transitive patterns, neither of which is dominant?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121'>Matthew</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=mail-editor-reference-message-container><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br><b>Date: </b>Monday, July 1, 2024 at 2:00</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>AM<br><b>To: </b>LINGTYP LINGTYP <LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p><span lang=EN-CA>Thanks for the comments on my query!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-CA>I was thinking of a contrast between (i) ALTERNATIONS and (ii) SPLITS, where an alternation is a pair of related patterns with overlapping distributions, while a split is a set of patterns that complement each other. Thus, the TAM splits in languages like Pitta-Pitta (Peter Austin) and Kopar (Bill Foley) do not count here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-CA>Misha Daniel is right that it is not clear how to even identify </span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt'>"accusative/ergative alternations", and for this reason I had asked about languages which have been "described as exhibiting" such an alternation.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt'>It seems to me that one needs to specify that by definition, a transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the cases), so that if there are two competing patterns none of which is dominant, one cannot identify a transitive pattern – and as a result, there is no way to identify "accusative" or "ergative". A well-known case of a language with no dominant agent-patient pattern (and hence no transitivity) is Tagalog.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt'>(This is different for ditransitive constructions, which need not be dominant in this sense, because the comparison is with monotransitive P, aas Misha notes.)</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt'>Jürgen Bohnemeyer's example from Hindi-Urdu seems more like an alternation between two ergative patterns (one in which the ergative is "instrumental"), but it also illustrates the difficulty of matching language-particular phenomena with comparative concepts if the latter are not very clearly defined.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt'>Best,</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt'>Martin</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span lang=EN-CA><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>On 30.06.24 16:07, Michael Daniel wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>Martin, <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>I am not sure how to operationalize the notions of accusative and ergative in this context. Assuming one uses the standard procedure of comparing the bivalent pattern to the intransitive one, I guess some unmarked antipassive constructions would qualify. Thus, in Mehweb Dargwa, East Caucasian, which lacks regular antipassive derivation, the verb 'carry' has two alternative valencies:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>Agent-Erg carries Theme-Nom (ergative pattern <i>on the basis of comparison</i> with X goes)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>Agent-Nom carries Theme-Erg (accusative pattern <i>on the bases of comparison</i> with X goes)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>But, <i>on the basis of comparison</i> with other transitive verbs, the second pattern is intransitive, so this would not qualify as accusative in the usual sense. Yet, I do not clearly see what would be possible other grounds to identify an ergative / accusative alternation, even in the presence of a TAM or animacy based split, because in your requirement these variables should be controlled for. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>This is different from the situation of secundative / indirective alternation, which is possible to identify in a language because they are identified on alignment-independent grounds (comparison to the encoding of P). Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how this is done in the case of the putative ergative / accusative uncoded alternation. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>Misha<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>вс, 30 июн. 2024</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>г. в 14:48, Peter Austin via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>Assuming you do not mean TAM-based split ergativity, e.g. Pitta-Pitta.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>Best<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><div id="m_2791204385624991659divRplyFwdMsg"><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2024 1:41:54 PM<br><b>To:</b> LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation</span><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt'>Dear typologists,<br><br>Does anyone know of a language that has been described as exhibiting an <br>accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where verbs with meanings like <br>'break' or 'chase' can occur in two constructions such as (1) and (2) <br>(which are schematic examples, not English)?<br><br>(1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br><br>(2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br><br>Such an alternation would be analogous to indirective/secundative <br>alternations, as in the schematic examples (3) and (4).<br><br>(3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they provided food to us')<br><br>(4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they provided us with food')<br><br>While indirective/secundative alternations have been described <br>repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations are little-known, and seem <br>to be quite rare. Is this impression correct?<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Martin<br><br>-- <br>Martin Haspelmath<br>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>Deutscher Platz 6<br>D-04103 Leipzig<br><a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eva.mpg.de%2Flinguistic-and-cultural-evolution%2Fstaff%2Fmartin-haspelmath%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cpa2%40mysoas.onmicrosoft.com%7Cfbd0d937e0024454098608dc99021b32%7C674dd0a1ae6242c7a39f69ee199537a8%7C0%7C0%7C638553481531300351%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Fk%2BOgeldXwuKKViruD6L3V%2BAXojpaM2NZAuKlpWpHdk%3D&reserved=0</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Lingtyp mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=05%7C02%7Cpa2%40mysoas.onmicrosoft.com%7Cfbd0d937e0024454098608dc99021b32%7C674dd0a1ae6242c7a39f69ee199537a8%7C0%7C0%7C638553481531308356%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=m50OjoB%2B%2Fq0Ib4wQbl6LoSVObo3TNuuYmqsl5rR6e%2Bs%3D&reserved=0</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>Lingtyp mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div></blockquote><pre><span lang=EN-CA>-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-CA>Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-CA>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-CA>Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-CA>D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-CA><a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></div></div></div></body></html>