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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Greetings Martin and others. I must mention that the idea that Tagalog has “no transitivity” is not an uncontroversial assumption, and in fact is based on faulty data. The situation
is very similar to the </span>Yupik-Inuit languages mentioned by Tony Woodbury. Unfortunately I don’t have time to go into this in and depth right now, but will refer to a to-appear paper available here:
<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381031114_Degrees_of_transitivity_in_Waray_clauses">
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381031114_Degrees_of_transitivity_in_Waray_clauses</a>. It’s about Waray, not Tagalog, but I believe similar arguments hold for Tagalog.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">All the best,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tom<span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Matthew Dryer via Lingtyp<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 2, 2024 1:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Martin Haspelmath <martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de>; LINGTYP LINGTYP <LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin,</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">I don’t understand why you say “<span style="color:#212121">by definition, a transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the cases)”. Why can there not be two transitive
patterns, neither of which is dominant?<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">Matthew</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, July 1, 2024 at 2:00</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AM<br>
<b>To: </b>LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span lang="EN-CA">Thanks for the comments on my query!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-CA">I was thinking of a contrast between (i) ALTERNATIONS and (ii) SPLITS, where an alternation is a pair of related patterns with overlapping distributions, while a split is a set of patterns that complement each other. Thus, the TAM splits
in languages like Pitta-Pitta (Peter Austin) and Kopar (Bill Foley) do not count here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-CA">Misha Daniel is right that it is not clear how to even identify
</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">"accusative/ergative alternations", and for this reason I had asked about languages which have been "described as exhibiting" such an alternation.</span><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">It seems to me that one needs to specify that by definition, a transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the cases), so that if there are two competing patterns none of which is
dominant, one cannot identify a transitive pattern – and as a result, there is no way to identify "accusative" or "ergative". A well-known case of a language with no dominant agent-patient pattern (and hence no transitivity) is Tagalog.</span><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">(This is different for ditransitive constructions, which need not be dominant in this sense, because the comparison is with monotransitive P, aas Misha notes.)</span><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">Jürgen Bohnemeyer's example from Hindi-Urdu seems more like an alternation between two ergative patterns (one in which the ergative is "instrumental"), but it also illustrates the difficulty of matching language-particular
phenomena with comparative concepts if the latter are not very clearly defined.</span><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">Best,</span><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">Martin</span><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">On 30.06.24 16:07, Michael Daniel wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">I am not sure how to operationalize the notions of accusative and ergative in this context. Assuming one uses the standard procedure of comparing the bivalent pattern to the intransitive one,
I guess some unmarked antipassive constructions would qualify. Thus, in Mehweb Dargwa, East Caucasian, which lacks regular antipassive derivation, the verb 'carry' has two alternative valencies:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Agent-Erg carries Theme-Nom (ergative pattern
<i>on the basis of comparison</i> with X goes)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Agent-Nom carries Theme-Erg (accusative pattern
<i>on the bases of comparison</i> with X goes)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">But, <i>on the basis of comparison</i> with other transitive verbs, the second pattern is intransitive, so this would not qualify as accusative in the usual sense. Yet, I do not clearly see what
would be possible other grounds to identify an ergative / accusative alternation, even in the presence of a TAM or animacy based split, because in your requirement these variables should be controlled for. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">This is different from the situation of secundative / indirective alternation, which is possible to identify in a language because they are identified on alignment-independent grounds (comparison
to the encoding of P). Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how this is done in the case of the putative ergative / accusative uncoded alternation. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Misha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">вс, 30 июн. 2024</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">г. в 14:48, Peter Austin via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Assuming you do not mean TAM-based split ergativity, e.g. Pitta-Pitta.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Best<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2024 1:41:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know of a language that has been described as exhibiting an <br>
accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where verbs with meanings like <br>
'break' or 'chase' can occur in two constructions such as (1) and (2) <br>
(which are schematic examples, not English)?<br>
<br>
(1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br>
<br>
(2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br>
<br>
Such an alternation would be analogous to indirective/secundative <br>
alternations, as in the schematic examples (3) and (4).<br>
<br>
(3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they provided food to us')<br>
<br>
(4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they provided us with food')<br>
<br>
While indirective/secundative alternations have been described <br>
repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations are little-known, and seem <br>
to be quite rare. Is this impression correct?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
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<pre><span lang="EN-CA">-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/__;!!C5qS4YX3!BBsCeDomM7Ij_lEExC5KeigvWN4lzyYV4Tt31S8RdHENi5NJuxmPIOznHjMwl8vj_9akufLkJ4MA6SdSMz2QP_VIlZiIEw$">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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