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<p>Thanks for the comments on my query!</p>
<p>I was thinking of a contrast between (i) ALTERNATIONS and (ii)
SPLITS, where an alternation is a pair of related patterns with
overlapping distributions, while a split is a set of patterns that
complement each other. Thus, the TAM splits in languages like
Pitta-Pitta (Peter Austin) and Kopar (Bill Foley) do not count
here.</p>
<p>Misha Daniel is right that it is not clear how to even identify <font
size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">"accusative/ergative
alternations", and for this reason I had asked about languages
which have been "described as exhibiting" such an alternation.</span></font></p>
<p><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">It seems to me that
one needs to specify that by definition, a transitive pattern
is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the
cases), so that if there are two competing patterns none of
which is dominant, one cannot identify a transitive pattern –
and as a result, there is no way to identify "accusative" or
"ergative". A well-known case of a language with no dominant
agent-patient pattern (and hence no transitivity) is Tagalog.<br>
</span></font></p>
<p><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">(This is different
for ditransitive constructions, which need not be dominant in
this sense, because the comparison is with monotransitive P,
aas Misha notes.)</span></font></p>
<p><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">Jürgen Bohnemeyer's
example from Hindi-Urdu seems more like an alternation between
two ergative patterns (one in which the ergative is
"instrumental"), but it also illustrates the difficulty of
matching language-particular phenomena with comparative
concepts if the latter are not very clearly defined.</span></font></p>
<p><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best,</span></font></p>
<p><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">Martin<br>
</span></font></p>
<p><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt"><br>
</span></font></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 30.06.24 16:07, Michael Daniel
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABAHGwcTZu7_NRdhpUOmvjbbRNBjynTJvr=06X+xAOYHhLLnGQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">Martin,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am not sure how to operationalize the notions of
accusative and ergative in this context. Assuming one uses the
standard procedure of comparing the bivalent pattern to the
intransitive one, I guess some unmarked antipassive
constructions would qualify. Thus, in Mehweb Dargwa, East
Caucasian, which lacks regular antipassive derivation, the
verb 'carry' has two alternative valencies:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Agent-Erg carries Theme-Nom (ergative pattern <i>on the
basis of comparison</i> with X goes)</div>
<div>Agent-Nom carries Theme-Erg (accusative pattern <i>on the
bases of comparison</i> with X goes)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But, <i>on the basis of comparison</i> with other
transitive verbs, the second pattern is intransitive, so this
would not qualify as accusative in the usual sense. Yet, I do
not clearly see what would be possible other grounds to
identify an ergative / accusative alternation, even in the
presence of a TAM or animacy based split, because in your
requirement these variables should be controlled for. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is different from the situation of secundative /
indirective alternation, which is possible to identify in a
language because they are identified on alignment-independent
grounds (comparison to the encoding of P). Maybe I am missing
something, but I do not see how this is done in the case of
the putative ergative / accusative uncoded alternation. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Misha<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вс, 30 июн. 2024 г. в 14:48,
Peter Austin via Lingtyp <<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div dir="auto">Assuming you do not mean TAM-based split
ergativity, e.g. Pitta-Pitta.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Best</div>
<div dir="auto">Peter</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="m_2791204385624991659divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2024 1:41:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] languages with
accusative/ergative alternation</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div>Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know of a language that has been
described as exhibiting an <br>
accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where verbs
with meanings like <br>
'break' or 'chase' can occur in two constructions
such as (1) and (2) <br>
(which are schematic examples, not English)?<br>
<br>
(1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br>
<br>
(2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br>
<br>
Such an alternation would be analogous to
indirective/secundative <br>
alternations, as in the schematic examples (3) and
(4).<br>
<br>
(3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they provided
food to us')<br>
<br>
(4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they provided us
with food')<br>
<br>
While indirective/secundative alternations have been
described <br>
repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations are
little-known, and seem <br>
to be quite rare. Is this impression correct?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></pre>
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