<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear Martin & Co,</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div>Majang (Surmic) does have this alternation in my opinion. Joswig (2019) doesn't go into it himself, but I was able to find a near-minimal pair on page 293, ex IV.229 b,f:</div><div>(DJ=disjoint form, HR=close to hearer, MOD=modified, accompanied by adnominal)</div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr">màlɛ́ wár↓ cìnɛ̀ íɗít↓<br><a href="http://hit.3SG.DJ">hit.3SG.DJ</a> dog\SG.ERG.MOD <a href="http://DEM.SG.HR">DEM.SG.HR</a> man\SG.ABS<br>'That dog hit the man.'</div><div dir="ltr"><br>màlɛ́ wár íɗít↓ cìnɛ̀ kɛ́kàr<br><a href="http://hit.3SG.DJ">hit.3SG.DJ</a> dog\SG.NOM man\SG.ABS <a href="http://DEM.SG.HR">DEM.SG.HR</a> again<br></div><div>'The dog hit that man again.'</div><div><br></div><div>In the first sentence the word for dog is in its modified ergative form, which unfortunately is syncretic with the absolutive singular and the modified nominative (see page 50). The unmodified ergative would be wâr. Example a of IV.229 however has 'my dog' as A, where the possessive shows ergative marking ('dog' itself is again wár↓) if you want a stronger argument for this being a (syncretic) ergative.</div><div>The case in Majang depends on topicality: topical S/A = marked nominative, non-topical A = ergative, non-topical S = unmarked (absolutive), any P = unmarked (absolutive). Thus this is also a kind of split, but I'm not positive that the indirective/secundative alternation isn't just a less overtly marked split either (akin to f.e. scrambling in German where one could say (non-)scrambled sentences are alternations of each other, but they nonetheless convey different information structure).</div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,<br>Sinoël<br></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Di., 2. Juli 2024 um 00:38 Uhr schrieb <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
(Woodbury, Anthony C)<br>
2. Re: languages with accusative/ergative alternation (Matthew Dryer)<br>
3. Re: Languages with accusative/ergative alternation (G. Khan)<br>
4. Re: languages with accusative/ergative alternation (Tom Payne)<br>
5. adverb 'when' used as prepositiom (Arnold M. Zwicky)<br>
<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 15:08:20 +0000<br>
From: "Woodbury, Anthony C" <<a href="mailto:woodbury@austin.utexas.edu" target="_blank">woodbury@austin.utexas.edu</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
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Subject: [Lingtyp] Languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:B63BC66B-EFD4-454B-9419-003CBC304466@austin.utexas.edu" target="_blank">B63BC66B-EFD4-454B-9419-003CBC304466@austin.utexas.edu</a>><br>
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<br>
Dear Martin and everyone,<br>
<br>
Yes, this is common for many verbs in many if not all Yupik-Inuit languages?as long as you recognize the case typically termed ?Modalis? or ?Instrumental? as having an accusative function, as is done in some Canadian traditions. For Central Alaskan Yupik, Osahito Miyaoka (2012:903-4) calls these 'zero-derived antipassives,' giving as an example (I quote directly):<br>
<br>
Angute-m(A) nayiq(P) ner-aa<br>
man-REL.sg <a href="http://seal.ABS.sg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">seal.ABS.sg</a>. eat-IND.3sg.3sg<br>
?The man is eating /has (just) eaten the seal?<br>
<br>
Angun (S) nayir-mek(P) ner?-uq.<br>
man-REL.sg seal-ABM.sg eat-IND.3sg?<br>
?The man is/has (just) eaten a/the seal?<br>
<br>
A bit of explaining: In the first sentence, the REL(ative) is the name traditionally used for the case with ergative function; and the verb is indexing both the Relative and Absolutive arguments, which in the logic of Y-I languages, makes it transitive.<br>
<br>
In the second sentence?first of all?angun ?man? is actually in the ABSOLUTIVE case, not the RELATIVE (which would be angutem); it?s a typo. And the verb is indexing only the Absolutive case argment, which is the eater/actor, the man, and in the logic of Y-I languages is considered intransitive because of this single indexing of an Absolutive. Meanwhile the patient is labeled ?ABM? for Ablative-Modalis (due to syncretism in Yup?ik of Ablative and Modalis). But it is reasonable to consider the Ablative-Modalis here as having accusative case behavior, as asserted in a lot of Canadian literature.<br>
<br>
Osahito then rightly point out that in the second case, ?the patient is backgrounded? but still may or may not be considered as definite. He goes on to show that even a proper name can function as the patient in either of the two constructions, which adds caution to the supposition that antipassives?if that?s what this is?necessarily ?demote? the patient to some sort of generic status.<br>
<br>
Tony Woodbury<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
Date: June 30, 2024 at 7:41:54?AM CDT<br>
To: LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>>><br>
<br>
<br>
Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know of a language that has been described as exhibiting an accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where verbs with meanings like 'break' or 'chase' can occur in two constructions such as (1) and (2) (which are schematic examples, not English)?<br>
<br>
(1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br>
<br>
(2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br>
<br>
Such an alternation would be analogous to indirective/secundative alternations, as in the schematic examples (3) and (4).<br>
<br>
(3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they provided food to us')<br>
<br>
(4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they provided us with food')<br>
<br>
While indirective/secundative alternations have been described repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations are little-known, and seem to be quite rare. Is this impression correct?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
--<br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 17:00:54 +0000<br>
From: Matthew Dryer <<a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>><br>
To: Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>, LINGTYP LINGTYP<br>
<<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
Message-ID:<br>
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<br>
Martin,<br>
<br>
I don?t understand why you say ?by definition, a transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the cases)?. Why can there not be two transitive patterns, neither of which is dominant?<br>
<br>
Matthew<br>
<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Date: Monday, July 1, 2024 at 2:00?AM<br>
To: LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
<br>
Thanks for the comments on my query!<br>
<br>
I was thinking of a contrast between (i) ALTERNATIONS and (ii) SPLITS, where an alternation is a pair of related patterns with overlapping distributions, while a split is a set of patterns that complement each other. Thus, the TAM splits in languages like Pitta-Pitta (Peter Austin) and Kopar (Bill Foley) do not count here.<br>
<br>
Misha Daniel is right that it is not clear how to even identify "accusative/ergative alternations", and for this reason I had asked about languages which have been "described as exhibiting" such an alternation.<br>
<br>
It seems to me that one needs to specify that by definition, a transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the cases), so that if there are two competing patterns none of which is dominant, one cannot identify a transitive pattern ? and as a result, there is no way to identify "accusative" or "ergative". A well-known case of a language with no dominant agent-patient pattern (and hence no transitivity) is Tagalog.<br>
<br>
(This is different for ditransitive constructions, which need not be dominant in this sense, because the comparison is with monotransitive P, aas Misha notes.)<br>
<br>
J?rgen Bohnemeyer's example from Hindi-Urdu seems more like an alternation between two ergative patterns (one in which the ergative is "instrumental"), but it also illustrates the difficulty of matching language-particular phenomena with comparative concepts if the latter are not very clearly defined.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
On 30.06.24 16:07, Michael Daniel wrote:<br>
Martin,<br>
<br>
I am not sure how to operationalize the notions of accusative and ergative in this context. Assuming one uses the standard procedure of comparing the bivalent pattern to the intransitive one, I guess some unmarked antipassive constructions would qualify. Thus, in Mehweb Dargwa, East Caucasian, which lacks regular antipassive derivation, the verb 'carry' has two alternative valencies:<br>
<br>
Agent-Erg carries Theme-Nom (ergative pattern on the basis of comparison with X goes)<br>
Agent-Nom carries Theme-Erg (accusative pattern on the bases of comparison with X goes)<br>
<br>
But, on the basis of comparison with other transitive verbs, the second pattern is intransitive, so this would not qualify as accusative in the usual sense. Yet, I do not clearly see what would be possible other grounds to identify an ergative / accusative alternation, even in the presence of a TAM or animacy based split, because in your requirement these variables should be controlled for.<br>
<br>
This is different from the situation of secundative / indirective alternation, which is possible to identify in a language because they are identified on alignment-independent grounds (comparison to the encoding of P). Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how this is done in the case of the putative ergative / accusative uncoded alternation.<br>
<br>
Misha<br>
<br>
??, 30 ???. 2024??. ? 14:48, Peter Austin via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>>:<br>
Assuming you do not mean TAM-based split ergativity, e.g. Pitta-Pitta.<br>
<br>
Best<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2024 1:41:54 PM<br>
To: LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
<br>
Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know of a language that has been described as exhibiting an<br>
accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where verbs with meanings like<br>
'break' or 'chase' can occur in two constructions such as (1) and (2)<br>
(which are schematic examples, not English)?<br>
<br>
(1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br>
<br>
(2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br>
<br>
Such an alternation would be analogous to indirective/secundative<br>
alternations, as in the schematic examples (3) and (4).<br>
<br>
(3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they provided food to us')<br>
<br>
(4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they provided us with food')<br>
<br>
While indirective/secundative alternations have been described<br>
repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations are little-known, and seem<br>
to be quite rare. Is this impression correct?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
--<br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eva.mpg.de%2Flinguistic-and-cultural-evolution%2Fstaff%2Fmartin-haspelmath%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cpa2%40mysoas.onmicrosoft.com%7Cfbd0d937e0024454098608dc99021b32%7C674dd0a1ae6242c7a39f69ee199537a8%7C0%7C0%7C638553481531300351%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Fk%2BOgeldXwuKKViruD6L3V%2BAXojpaM2NZAuKlpWpHdk%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eva.mpg.de%2Flinguistic-and-cultural-evolution%2Fstaff%2Fmartin-haspelmath%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cpa2%40mysoas.onmicrosoft.com%7Cfbd0d937e0024454098608dc99021b32%7C674dd0a1ae6242c7a39f69ee199537a8%7C0%7C0%7C638553481531300351%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Fk%2BOgeldXwuKKViruD6L3V%2BAXojpaM2NZAuKlpWpHdk%3D&reserved=0</a><<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a>><br>
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--<br>
<br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 17:01:38 +0000<br>
From: "G. Khan" <<a href="mailto:gk101@cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">gk101@cam.ac.uk</a>><br>
To: "Woodbury, Anthony C" <<a href="mailto:woodbury@austin.utexas.edu" target="_blank">woodbury@austin.utexas.edu</a>>,<br>
"<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
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<br>
Dear Martin,<br>
<br>
An example of what you are looking for seems to be Neo-Aramaic. In many Neo-Aramaic dialects, the agent of past perfective verbs is oblique (ergative), but the object may be either nominative (1) and cross-referenced by a nominative affix on the verb or accusative (2) and not cross-referenced by a nominative suffix on the verb:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jewish Sanandaj Neo-Aramaic (Khan 2009)<br>
<br>
(1)<br>
<br>
?oni<br>
<br>
g?r?-i?-le<br>
<br>
they.nom<br>
<br>
pull.pst-1sg.nom-obl.3sg.m<br>
<br>
?he pulled them?<br>
<br>
(2)<br>
<br>
gr??-le<br>
<br>
??l-u<br>
<br>
pull.pst-obl<br>
<br>
acc-3pl<br>
<br>
?he pulled them?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Geoffrey Khan<br>
<br>
<br>
Geoffrey Khan<br>
University of Cambridge<br>
Faculty of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies<br>
Sidgwick Avenue<br>
Cambridge CB3 9DA, UK<br>
<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> On Behalf Of Woodbury, Anthony C via Lingtyp<br>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2024 4:08 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] Languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
<br>
Dear Martin and everyone,<br>
<br>
Yes, this is common for many verbs in many if not all Yupik-Inuit languages?as long as you recognize the case typically termed ?Modalis? or ?Instrumental? as having an accusative function, as is done in some Canadian traditions. For Central Alaskan Yupik, Osahito Miyaoka (2012:903-4) calls these 'zero-derived antipassives,' giving as an example (I quote directly):<br>
<br>
Angute-m(A) nayiq(P) ner-aa<br>
man-REL.sg <a href="http://seal.ABS.sg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">seal.ABS.sg</a>. eat-IND.3sg.3sg<br>
?The man is eating /has (just) eaten the seal?<br>
<br>
Angun (S) nayir-mek(P) ner?-uq.<br>
man-REL.sg seal-ABM.sg eat-IND.3sg?<br>
?The man is/has (just) eaten a/the seal?<br>
<br>
A bit of explaining: In the first sentence, the REL(ative) is the name traditionally used for the case with ergative function; and the verb is indexing both the Relative and Absolutive arguments, which in the logic of Y-I languages, makes it transitive.<br>
<br>
In the second sentence?first of all?angun ?man? is actually in the ABSOLUTIVE case, not the RELATIVE (which would be angutem); it?s a typo. And the verb is indexing only the Absolutive case argment, which is the eater/actor, the man, and in the logic of Y-I languages is considered intransitive because of this single indexing of an Absolutive. Meanwhile the patient is labeled ?ABM? for Ablative-Modalis (due to syncretism in Yup?ik of Ablative and Modalis). But it is reasonable to consider the Ablative-Modalis here as having accusative case behavior, as asserted in a lot of Canadian literature.<br>
<br>
Osahito then rightly point out that in the second case, ?the patient is backgrounded? but still may or may not be considered as definite. He goes on to show that even a proper name can function as the patient in either of the two constructions, which adds caution to the supposition that antipassives?if that?s what this is?necessarily ?demote? the patient to some sort of generic status.<br>
<br>
Tony Woodbury<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
Date: June 30, 2024 at 7:41:54?AM CDT<br>
To: LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>>><br>
<br>
<br>
Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know of a language that has been described as exhibiting an accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where verbs with meanings like 'break' or 'chase' can occur in two constructions such as (1) and (2) (which are schematic examples, not English)?<br>
<br>
(1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br>
<br>
(2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br>
<br>
Such an alternation would be analogous to indirective/secundative alternations, as in the schematic examples (3) and (4).<br>
<br>
(3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they provided food to us')<br>
<br>
(4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they provided us with food')<br>
<br>
While indirective/secundative alternations have been described repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations are little-known, and seem to be quite rare. Is this impression correct?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
--<br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2024 21:55:11 +0000<br>
From: Tom Payne <<a href="mailto:tpayne@uoregon.edu" target="_blank">tpayne@uoregon.edu</a>><br>
To: Matthew Dryer <<a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>>, Martin Haspelmath<br>
<<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>, LINGTYP LINGTYP<br>
<<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:MWHPR1001MB23353D26BEFC0C1377D15B9CDCD32@MWHPR1001MB2335.namprd10.prod.outlook.com" target="_blank">MWHPR1001MB23353D26BEFC0C1377D15B9CDCD32@MWHPR1001MB2335.namprd10.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Greetings Martin and others. I must mention that the idea that Tagalog has ?no transitivity? is not an uncontroversial assumption, and in fact is based on faulty data. The situation is very similar to the Yupik-Inuit languages mentioned by Tony Woodbury. Unfortunately I don?t have time to go into this in and depth right now, but will refer to a to-appear paper available here: <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381031114_Degrees_of_transitivity_in_Waray_clauses" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381031114_Degrees_of_transitivity_in_Waray_clauses</a>. It?s about Waray, not Tagalog, but I believe similar arguments hold for Tagalog.<br>
All the best,<br>
Tom<br>
<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> On Behalf Of Matthew Dryer via Lingtyp<br>
Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2024 1:01 AM<br>
To: Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>>; LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
<br>
Martin,<br>
<br>
I don?t understand why you say ?by definition, a transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the cases)?. Why can there not be two transitive patterns, neither of which is dominant?<br>
<br>
Matthew<br>
<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
Date: Monday, July 1, 2024 at 2:00?AM<br>
To: LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
<br>
Thanks for the comments on my query!<br>
<br>
I was thinking of a contrast between (i) ALTERNATIONS and (ii) SPLITS, where an alternation is a pair of related patterns with overlapping distributions, while a split is a set of patterns that complement each other. Thus, the TAM splits in languages like Pitta-Pitta (Peter Austin) and Kopar (Bill Foley) do not count here.<br>
<br>
Misha Daniel is right that it is not clear how to even identify "accusative/ergative alternations", and for this reason I had asked about languages which have been "described as exhibiting" such an alternation.<br>
<br>
It seems to me that one needs to specify that by definition, a transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the cases), so that if there are two competing patterns none of which is dominant, one cannot identify a transitive pattern ? and as a result, there is no way to identify "accusative" or "ergative". A well-known case of a language with no dominant agent-patient pattern (and hence no transitivity) is Tagalog.<br>
<br>
(This is different for ditransitive constructions, which need not be dominant in this sense, because the comparison is with monotransitive P, aas Misha notes.)<br>
<br>
J?rgen Bohnemeyer's example from Hindi-Urdu seems more like an alternation between two ergative patterns (one in which the ergative is "instrumental"), but it also illustrates the difficulty of matching language-particular phenomena with comparative concepts if the latter are not very clearly defined.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
On 30.06.24 16:07, Michael Daniel wrote:<br>
Martin,<br>
<br>
I am not sure how to operationalize the notions of accusative and ergative in this context. Assuming one uses the standard procedure of comparing the bivalent pattern to the intransitive one, I guess some unmarked antipassive constructions would qualify. Thus, in Mehweb Dargwa, East Caucasian, which lacks regular antipassive derivation, the verb 'carry' has two alternative valencies:<br>
<br>
Agent-Erg carries Theme-Nom (ergative pattern on the basis of comparison with X goes)<br>
Agent-Nom carries Theme-Erg (accusative pattern on the bases of comparison with X goes)<br>
<br>
But, on the basis of comparison with other transitive verbs, the second pattern is intransitive, so this would not qualify as accusative in the usual sense. Yet, I do not clearly see what would be possible other grounds to identify an ergative / accusative alternation, even in the presence of a TAM or animacy based split, because in your requirement these variables should be controlled for.<br>
<br>
This is different from the situation of secundative / indirective alternation, which is possible to identify in a language because they are identified on alignment-independent grounds (comparison to the encoding of P). Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how this is done in the case of the putative ergative / accusative uncoded alternation.<br>
<br>
Misha<br>
<br>
??, 30 ???. 2024??. ? 14:48, Peter Austin via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>>:<br>
Assuming you do not mean TAM-based split ergativity, e.g. Pitta-Pitta.<br>
<br>
Best<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2024 1:41:54 PM<br>
To: LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<br>
<br>
Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know of a language that has been described as exhibiting an<br>
accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where verbs with meanings like<br>
'break' or 'chase' can occur in two constructions such as (1) and (2)<br>
(which are schematic examples, not English)?<br>
<br>
(1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br>
<br>
(2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br>
<br>
Such an alternation would be analogous to indirective/secundative<br>
alternations, as in the schematic examples (3) and (4).<br>
<br>
(3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they provided food to us')<br>
<br>
(4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they provided us with food')<br>
<br>
While indirective/secundative alternations have been described<br>
repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations are little-known, and seem<br>
to be quite rare. Is this impression correct?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
--<br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eva.mpg.de%2Flinguistic-and-cultural-evolution%2Fstaff%2Fmartin-haspelmath%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cpa2%40mysoas.onmicrosoft.com%7Cfbd0d937e0024454098608dc99021b32%7C674dd0a1ae6242c7a39f69ee199537a8%7C0%7C0%7C638553481531300351%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Fk%2BOgeldXwuKKViruD6L3V%2BAXojpaM2NZAuKlpWpHdk%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eva.mpg.de%2Flinguistic-and-cultural-evolution%2Fstaff%2Fmartin-haspelmath%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cpa2%40mysoas.onmicrosoft.com%7Cfbd0d937e0024454098608dc99021b32%7C674dd0a1ae6242c7a39f69ee199537a8%7C0%7C0%7C638553481531300351%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Fk%2BOgeldXwuKKViruD6L3V%2BAXojpaM2NZAuKlpWpHdk%3D&reserved=0</a><<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/__;!!C5qS4YX3!BBsCeDomM7Ij_lEExC5KeigvWN4lzyYV4Tt31S8RdHENi5NJuxmPIOznHjMwl8vj_9akufLkJ4MA6SdSMz2QP_VIlZiIEw$" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/__;!!C5qS4YX3!BBsCeDomM7Ij_lEExC5KeigvWN4lzyYV4Tt31S8RdHENi5NJuxmPIOznHjMwl8vj_9akufLkJ4MA6SdSMz2QP_VIlZiIEw$</a>><br>
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--<br>
<br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/__;!!C5qS4YX3!BBsCeDomM7Ij_lEExC5KeigvWN4lzyYV4Tt31S8RdHENi5NJuxmPIOznHjMwl8vj_9akufLkJ4MA6SdSMz2QP_VIlZiIEw$" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/__;!!C5qS4YX3!BBsCeDomM7Ij_lEExC5KeigvWN4lzyYV4Tt31S8RdHENi5NJuxmPIOznHjMwl8vj_9akufLkJ4MA6SdSMz2QP_VIlZiIEw$</a>><br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2024 20:41:56 +0000<br>
From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" <<a href="mailto:zwicky@stanford.edu" target="_blank">zwicky@stanford.edu</a>><br>
To: Linguistic Typology <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Cc: "Luc V. Baronian" <<a href="mailto:baronian@uqac.ca" target="_blank">baronian@uqac.ca</a>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] adverb 'when' used as prepositiom<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:CA8BCF73-27BD-416E-8396-15C43CB1629C@stanford.edu" target="_blank">CA8BCF73-27BD-416E-8396-15C43CB1629C@stanford.edu</a>><br>
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Had a long visit yesterday from my linguistics colleague Luc Vartan Baronian, at UQ ? Chicoutimi, during which he asked if I knew about cases where a subordinating adverbial of place -- 'where' -- has developed a use as a preposition, as French o? has in Qu?bec. This from a joint research project with Hugo Saint-Amant--Lamy, at UQ ? Rimouski.(Some examples, from a large database, below.) I dimly recalled a discussion on this list about such examples (possibly involvng other subordinating adverbials as well, though in Qu?bec French it's just the place adverbial that's affected).Can someone point me to this discussion? Luc isn't a subscriber to this list, but I'll forward responses on to him. (Or you could add <a href="mailto:baronian@uqac.ca" target="_blank">baronian@uqac.ca</a> as a recipient of your mailing.)<br>
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Exemples de <o? SN> [AZ: SN abbreviating "syntagme nominal" = Noun Phrase)]:<br>
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-- Va te placer o? l'?toile.<br>
-- Il faut tourner ? droite o? l'?glise.<br>
-- O? les lilas, on mettrait des chaises longues.<br>
-- J'ai laiss? mes cl?s o? l'ordinateur.<br>
-- J'ai mal au pied, o? la petite bosse.<br>
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[AZ: They're also researching the geographical distribution of the variant within Qu?bec.]<br>
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Arnold<br>
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End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 118, Issue 2<br>
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