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<p>On 01.07.24 19:00, Matthew Dryer wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin,</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I don’t
understand why you say “</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">by definition, a
transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than
two thirds of the cases)”. Why can there not be two
transitive patterns, neither of which is dominant?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">Matthew</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm not entirely sure (which is why I posted the query), but it
seems to me that the definition of "transitive" requires that
there be a single transitive pattern. In English, for example, (i)
is dominant over (ii), so we do not say that both are transitive,
and that "at" is an accusative preposition. Instead, we say that
"at" is an oblique marker.<br>
</p>
<p>(i) They shot the bear.</p>
<p>(ii) They shot at the bear.</p>
<p>Lazard (2002) explains how the notion of transitivity can be
grounded in the notion of "the major biactant construction" of a
language. He does not say explicitly that there can only be one
such construction, but it seems to be presupposed. In my (2011)
paper (on S, A, P, T, R), I rely on Lazard, and I also mostly
assume that there is just one transitive construction. I was
unsure what to do with cases like Yupik (mentioned by Tony
Woodbury in this thread), so I mostly ignored them (but I briefly
mentioned Tagalog in n. 12).<br>
</p>
<div>Angute-m(A) nayiq(P) ner-aa</div>
<div>man-ERG.SG seal.ABS.SG eat-IND.3SG.3SG</div>
<div>’The man is eating /has (just) eaten the seal’</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Angun(S) nayir-mek(P) ner’-uq.</div>
<div>man.ABS.SG seal-ABM.SG eat-IND.3SG</div>
<div>’The man is/has (just) eaten a/the seal’</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It seems to me that the way Tony labels the arguments here is
not well-motivated: Why is ergative-marked "angute-m" an A in the
first sentence, but absolutive-marked "angun" an S in the second
sentence? Why is 'seal' a P in both sentences?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's logically possible to say that both these sentences are
transitive, each with an A and a P, but do we actually want to say
that? Do we want to say that the Yupik ABM ("ablative-modalis") is
an accusative case? I'm not sure, so I asked whether any language
had been described in this way (does Miyaoka 2012 say that?).
Maybe one problem is that making a distinction between a pattern
with a dominant member (as in English (i) and (ii)) and a pattern
where there is not clearly a dominant member (as in Yupik) boils
down to frequency, and linguists are often reluctant to make such
decisions on the basis of frequency of use.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Denis Creissels cites the example of Balinese (from Udayana
2013):<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cang n-yemak baju ento.</div>
<div>I ACT-take shirt DEM</div>
<div>'I look the shirt.' (Actor Voice, accusative alignment(?))<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Baju ento jemak cang.</div>
<div>shirt DEM PAT.take I</div>
<div>'I look the shirt.' (Patient Voice, ergative alignment(?))</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, there is no argument flagging here (so the "alignment"
concerns only word order), and the Actor Voice is characterized by
a voice prefix, so it's not an uncoded alternation (unlike the
English indirective/secundative alternation, and unlike the Yupik
alternation cited above).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Perhaps the issue boils down to how exactly we individuate the
relevant constructions. For example, Creissels (2024) often talks
about "variants of the transitive construction", which seems to be
in line with Lazard's (2002) presupposition that there is one
"major biactant construction", but do we want to say that the two
Yupik sentences cited by Tony Woodbury are "variants of the Yupik
transitive construction"? I'm not sure.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the discussion!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Martin<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>References</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="csl-bib-body"
style="line-height: 1.35; margin-left: 2em; text-indent:-2em;">
<div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Creissels, Denis. 2024. <i>Transitivity,
valency and voice</i>. Oxford: Oxford University Press (to
appear).</font></div>
<font size="2"><span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Transitivity%2C%20valency%20and%20voice&rft.place=Oxford&rft.publisher=Oxford%20University%20Press%20(to%20appear)&rft.aufirst=Denis&rft.aulast=Creissels&rft.au=Denis%20Creissels&rft.date=2024"></span></font>
<div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Haspelmath, Martin. 2011.
On S, A, P, T, and R as comparative concepts for alignment
typology. <i>Linguistic Typology</i> 15(3). 535–567.</font></div>
<font size="2"><span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=On%20S%2C%20A%2C%20P%2C%20T%2C%20and%20R%20as%20comparative%20concepts%20for%20alignment%20typology&rft.jtitle=Linguistic%20Typology&rft.volume=15&rft.issue=3&rft.aufirst=Martin&rft.aulast=Haspelmath&rft.au=Martin%20Haspelmath&rft.date=2011&rft.pages=535%E2%80%93567&rft.spage=535&rft.epage=567"></span></font>
<div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Lazard, Gilbert. 2002.
Transitivity revisited as an example of a more strict
approach in typological research. <i>Folia Linguistica</i>
36(3–4). 141–190. (doi:<a
href="https://doi.org/10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141">10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141</a>)</font></div>
<font size="2"><span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1515%2Fflin.2002.36.3-4.141&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Transitivity%20revisited%20as%20an%20example%20of%20a%20more%20strict%20approach%20in%20typological%20research&rft.jtitle=Folia%20Linguistica&rft.volume=36&rft.issue=3-4&rft.aufirst=Gilbert&rft.aulast=Lazard&rft.au=Gilbert%20Lazard&rft.date=2002&rft.pages=141%E2%80%93190&rft.spage=141&rft.epage=190&rft.issn=0165-4004"></span></font>
<div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Miyaoka, Osahito. 2012. <i>A
grammar of Central Alaskan Yupik</i>. Berlin: De Gruyter
Mouton.</font></div>
<font size="2"><span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=A%20grammar%20of%20Central%20Alaskan%20Yupik&rft.place=Berlin&rft.publisher=De%20Gruyter%20Mouton&rft.aufirst=Osahito&rft.aulast=Miyaoka&rft.au=Osahito%20Miyaoka&rft.date=2012"></span></font>
<div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Udayana, I Nyoman. 2013. <i>Voice
and reflexives in Balinese</i>. Austin: University of
Texas at Austin. (PhD dissertation.)</font></div>
<span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Adissertation&rft.title=Voice%20and%20reflexives%20in%20Balinese&rft.aufirst=I%20Nyoman&rft.aulast=Udayana&rft.au=I%20Nyoman%20Udayana&rft.date=2013"></span>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<p></p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MW5PR15MB5122F4AF4A110473DC11DB45ADD32@MW5PR15MB5122.namprd15.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container">
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, July 1, 2024 at 2:00</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AM<br>
<b>To: </b>LINGTYP LINGTYP
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org"><LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] languages with
accusative/ergative alternation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p>Thanks for the comments on my query!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I was thinking of a contrast between (i) ALTERNATIONS and
(ii) SPLITS, where an alternation is a pair of related
patterns with overlapping distributions, while a split is
a set of patterns that complement each other. Thus, the
TAM splits in languages like Pitta-Pitta (Peter Austin)
and Kopar (Bill Foley) do not count here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Misha Daniel is right that it is not clear how to even
identify <span style="font-size:11.0pt">
"accusative/ergative alternations", and for this reason
I had asked about languages which have been "described
as exhibiting" such an alternation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">It seems to me that one
needs to specify that by definition, a transitive
pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two
thirds of the cases), so that if there are two competing
patterns none of which is dominant, one cannot identify
a transitive pattern – and as a result, there is no way
to identify "accusative" or "ergative". A well-known
case of a language with no dominant agent-patient
pattern (and hence no transitivity) is Tagalog.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">(This is different for
ditransitive constructions, which need not be dominant
in this sense, because the comparison is with
monotransitive P, aas Misha notes.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Jürgen Bohnemeyer's
example from Hindi-Urdu seems more like an alternation
between two ergative patterns (one in which the ergative
is "instrumental"), but it also illustrates the
difficulty of matching language-particular phenomena
with comparative concepts if the latter are not very
clearly defined.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Martin</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">On
30.06.24 16:07, Michael Daniel wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I
am not sure how to operationalize the notions of
accusative and ergative in this context. Assuming
one uses the standard procedure of comparing the
bivalent pattern to the intransitive one, I guess
some unmarked antipassive constructions would
qualify. Thus, in Mehweb Dargwa, East Caucasian,
which lacks regular antipassive derivation, the
verb 'carry' has two alternative valencies:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Agent-Erg
carries Theme-Nom (ergative pattern
<i>on the basis of comparison</i> with X goes)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Agent-Nom
carries Theme-Erg (accusative pattern
<i>on the bases of comparison</i> with X goes)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">But,
<i>on the basis of comparison</i> with other
transitive verbs, the second pattern is
intransitive, so this would not qualify as
accusative in the usual sense. Yet, I do not
clearly see what would be possible other grounds
to identify an ergative / accusative alternation,
even in the presence of a TAM or animacy based
split, because in your requirement these variables
should be controlled for. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">This
is different from the situation of secundative /
indirective alternation, which is possible to
identify in a language because they are identified
on alignment-independent grounds (comparison to
the encoding of P). Maybe I am missing something,
but I do not see how this is done in the case of
the putative ergative / accusative uncoded
alternation. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Misha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">вс,
30 июн. 2024</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">г. в 14:48, Peter Austin
via Lingtyp <<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">Assuming you do not
mean TAM-based split ergativity, e.g.
Pitta-Pitta.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">Best<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">
<hr width="100%" size="0" align="center">
</span></div>
<div id="m_2791204385624991659divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
Lingtyp <<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp
<<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2024 1:41:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] languages with
accusative/ergative alternation</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know of a language that has been
described as exhibiting an <br>
accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where
verbs with meanings like <br>
'break' or 'chase' can occur in two
constructions such as (1) and (2) <br>
(which are schematic examples, not English)?<br>
<br>
(1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br>
<br>
(2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br>
<br>
Such an alternation would be analogous to
indirective/secundative <br>
alternations, as in the schematic examples
(3) and (4).<br>
<br>
(3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they
provided food to us')<br>
<br>
(4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they
provided us with food')<br>
<br>
While indirective/secundative alternations
have been described <br>
repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations
are little-known, and seem <br>
to be quite rare. Is this impression
correct?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary
Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
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<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a
href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></pre>
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