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    <p>On 01.07.24 19:00, Matthew Dryer wrote:</p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MW5PR15MB5122F4AF4A110473DC11DB45ADD32@MW5PR15MB5122.namprd15.prod.outlook.com">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin,</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I don’t
            understand why you say “</span><span
            style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">by definition, a
            transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than
            two thirds of the cases)”. Why can there not be two
            transitive patterns, neither of which is dominant?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">Matthew</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>I'm not entirely sure (which is why I posted the query), but it
      seems to me that the definition of "transitive" requires that
      there be a single transitive pattern. In English, for example, (i)
      is dominant over (ii), so we do not say that both are transitive,
      and that "at" is an accusative preposition. Instead, we say that
      "at" is an oblique marker.<br>
    </p>
    <p>(i) They shot the bear.</p>
    <p>(ii) They shot at the bear.</p>
    <p>Lazard (2002) explains how the notion of transitivity can be
      grounded in the notion of "the major biactant construction" of a
      language. He does not say explicitly that there can only be one
      such construction, but it seems to be presupposed. In my (2011)
      paper (on S, A, P, T, R), I rely on Lazard, and I also mostly
      assume that there is just one transitive construction. I was
      unsure what to do with cases like Yupik (mentioned by Tony
      Woodbury in this thread), so I mostly ignored them (but I briefly
      mentioned Tagalog in n. 12).<br>
    </p>
    <div>Angute-m(A)    nayiq(P)         ner-aa</div>
    <div>man-ERG.SG     seal.ABS.SG  eat-IND.3SG.3SG</div>
    <div>’The man is eating /has (just) eaten the seal’</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Angun(S)       nayir-mek(P)   ner’-uq.</div>
    <div>man.ABS.SG   seal-ABM.SG     eat-IND.3SG</div>
    <div>’The man is/has (just) eaten a/the seal’</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>It seems to me that the way Tony labels the arguments here is
      not well-motivated: Why is ergative-marked "angute-m" an A in the
      first sentence, but absolutive-marked "angun" an S in the second
      sentence? Why is 'seal' a P in both sentences?</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>It's logically possible to say that both these sentences are
      transitive, each with an A and a P, but do we actually want to say
      that? Do we want to say that the Yupik ABM ("ablative-modalis") is
      an accusative case? I'm not sure, so I asked whether any language
      had been described in this way (does Miyaoka 2012 say that?).
      Maybe one problem is that making a distinction between a pattern
      with a dominant member (as in English (i) and (ii)) and a pattern
      where there is not clearly a dominant member (as in Yupik) boils
      down to frequency, and linguists are often reluctant to make such
      decisions on the basis of frequency of use.</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Denis Creissels cites the example of Balinese (from Udayana
      2013):<br>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Cang n-yemak baju ento.</div>
    <div>I ACT-take shirt DEM</div>
    <div>'I look the shirt.' (Actor Voice, accusative alignment(?))<br>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Baju ento jemak cang.</div>
    <div>shirt DEM PAT.take I</div>
    <div>'I look the shirt.' (Patient Voice, ergative alignment(?))</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>However, there is no argument flagging here (so the "alignment"
      concerns only word order), and the Actor Voice is characterized by
      a voice prefix, so it's not an uncoded alternation (unlike the
      English indirective/secundative alternation, and unlike the Yupik
      alternation cited above).</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Perhaps the issue boils down to how exactly we individuate the
      relevant constructions. For example, Creissels (2024) often talks
      about "variants of the transitive construction", which seems to be
      in line with Lazard's (2002) presupposition that there is one
      "major biactant construction", but do we want to say that the two
      Yupik sentences cited by Tony Woodbury are "variants of the Yupik
      transitive construction"? I'm not sure.<br>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Thanks for the discussion!</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Martin<br>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>References</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>
      <div class="csl-bib-body"
        style="line-height: 1.35; margin-left: 2em; text-indent:-2em;">
        <div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Creissels, Denis. 2024. <i>Transitivity,
              valency and voice</i>. Oxford: Oxford University Press (to
            appear).</font></div>
        <font size="2"><span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Transitivity%2C%20valency%20and%20voice&rft.place=Oxford&rft.publisher=Oxford%20University%20Press%20(to%20appear)&rft.aufirst=Denis&rft.aulast=Creissels&rft.au=Denis%20Creissels&rft.date=2024"></span></font>
        <div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Haspelmath, Martin. 2011.
            On S, A, P, T, and R as comparative concepts for alignment
            typology. <i>Linguistic Typology</i> 15(3). 535–567.</font></div>
        <font size="2"><span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=On%20S%2C%20A%2C%20P%2C%20T%2C%20and%20R%20as%20comparative%20concepts%20for%20alignment%20typology&rft.jtitle=Linguistic%20Typology&rft.volume=15&rft.issue=3&rft.aufirst=Martin&rft.aulast=Haspelmath&rft.au=Martin%20Haspelmath&rft.date=2011&rft.pages=535%E2%80%93567&rft.spage=535&rft.epage=567"></span></font>
        <div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Lazard, Gilbert. 2002.
            Transitivity revisited as an example of a more strict
            approach in typological research. <i>Folia Linguistica</i>
            36(3–4). 141–190. (doi:<a
              href="https://doi.org/10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141">10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141</a>)</font></div>
        <font size="2"><span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1515%2Fflin.2002.36.3-4.141&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Transitivity%20revisited%20as%20an%20example%20of%20a%20more%20strict%20approach%20in%20typological%20research&rft.jtitle=Folia%20Linguistica&rft.volume=36&rft.issue=3-4&rft.aufirst=Gilbert&rft.aulast=Lazard&rft.au=Gilbert%20Lazard&rft.date=2002&rft.pages=141%E2%80%93190&rft.spage=141&rft.epage=190&rft.issn=0165-4004"></span></font>
        <div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Miyaoka, Osahito. 2012. <i>A
              grammar of Central Alaskan Yupik</i>. Berlin: De Gruyter
            Mouton.</font></div>
        <font size="2"><span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=A%20grammar%20of%20Central%20Alaskan%20Yupik&rft.place=Berlin&rft.publisher=De%20Gruyter%20Mouton&rft.aufirst=Osahito&rft.aulast=Miyaoka&rft.au=Osahito%20Miyaoka&rft.date=2012"></span></font>
        <div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Udayana, I Nyoman. 2013. <i>Voice
              and reflexives in Balinese</i>. Austin: University of
            Texas at Austin. (PhD dissertation.)</font></div>
        <span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Adissertation&rft.title=Voice%20and%20reflexives%20in%20Balinese&rft.aufirst=I%20Nyoman&rft.aulast=Udayana&rft.au=I%20Nyoman%20Udayana&rft.date=2013"></span>
      </div>
    </div>
    <br>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <p></p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:MW5PR15MB5122F4AF4A110473DC11DB45ADD32@MW5PR15MB5122.namprd15.prod.outlook.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container">
          <div>
            <div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
                    style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
                  </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
                  behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
                  <b>Date: </b>Monday, July 1, 2024 at 2:00</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span
                  style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AM<br>
                  <b>To: </b>LINGTYP LINGTYP
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org"><LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
                  <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] languages with
                  accusative/ergative alternation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <p>Thanks for the comments on my query!<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p>I was thinking of a contrast between (i) ALTERNATIONS and
              (ii) SPLITS, where an alternation is a pair of related
              patterns with overlapping distributions, while a split is
              a set of patterns that complement each other. Thus, the
              TAM splits in languages like Pitta-Pitta (Peter Austin)
              and Kopar (Bill Foley) do not count here.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p>Misha Daniel is right that it is not clear how to even
              identify <span style="font-size:11.0pt">
                "accusative/ergative alternations", and for this reason
                I had asked about languages which have been "described
                as exhibiting" such an alternation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">It seems to me that one
                needs to specify that by definition, a transitive
                pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two
                thirds of the cases), so that if there are two competing
                patterns none of which is dominant, one cannot identify
                a transitive pattern – and as a result, there is no way
                to identify "accusative" or "ergative". A well-known
                case of a language with no dominant agent-patient
                pattern (and hence no transitivity) is Tagalog.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">(This is different for
                ditransitive constructions, which need not be dominant
                in this sense, because the comparison is with
                monotransitive P, aas Misha notes.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Jürgen Bohnemeyer's
                example from Hindi-Urdu seems more like an alternation
                between two ergative patterns (one in which the ergative
                is "instrumental"), but it also illustrates the
                difficulty of matching language-particular phenomena
                with comparative concepts if the latter are not very
                clearly defined.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Martin</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">On
                  30.06.24 16:07, Michael Daniel wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin,
                    <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I
                      am not sure how to operationalize the notions of
                      accusative and ergative in this context. Assuming
                      one uses the standard procedure of comparing the
                      bivalent pattern to the intransitive one, I guess
                      some unmarked antipassive constructions would
                      qualify. Thus, in Mehweb Dargwa, East Caucasian,
                      which lacks regular antipassive derivation, the
                      verb 'carry' has two alternative valencies:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Agent-Erg
                      carries Theme-Nom (ergative pattern
                      <i>on the basis of comparison</i> with X goes)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Agent-Nom
                      carries Theme-Erg (accusative pattern
                      <i>on the bases of comparison</i> with X goes)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">But,
                      <i>on the basis of comparison</i> with other
                      transitive verbs, the second pattern is
                      intransitive, so this would not qualify as
                      accusative in the usual sense. Yet, I do not
                      clearly see what would be possible other grounds
                      to identify an ergative / accusative alternation,
                      even in the presence of a TAM or animacy based
                      split, because in your requirement these variables
                      should be controlled for. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">This
                      is different from the situation of secundative /
                      indirective alternation, which is possible to
                      identify in a language because they are identified
                      on alignment-independent grounds (comparison to
                      the encoding of P). Maybe I am missing something,
                      but I do not see how this is done in the case of
                      the putative ergative / accusative uncoded
                      alternation.    <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Misha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">вс,
                      30 июн. 2024</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.0pt">г. в 14:48, Peter Austin
                      via Lingtyp <<a
                        href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt">Assuming you do not
                          mean TAM-based split ergativity, e.g.
                          Pitta-Pitta.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt">Best<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt">Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                    </div>
                    <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
                      align="center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">
                        <hr width="100%" size="0" align="center">
                      </span></div>
                    <div id="m_2791204385624991659divRplyFwdMsg">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
                          Lingtyp <<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
                          on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp
                          <<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
                          <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2024 1:41:54 PM<br>
                          <b>To:</b> LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank"
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br>
                          <b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] languages with
                          accusative/ergative alternation</span><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt">
                          <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                            style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear typologists,<br>
                            <br>
                            Does anyone know of a language that has been
                            described as exhibiting an <br>
                            accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where
                            verbs with meanings like <br>
                            'break' or 'chase' can occur in two
                            constructions such as (1) and (2) <br>
                            (which are schematic examples, not English)?<br>
                            <br>
                            (1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br>
                            <br>
                            (2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br>
                            <br>
                            Such an alternation would be analogous to
                            indirective/secundative <br>
                            alternations, as in the schematic examples
                            (3) and (4).<br>
                            <br>
                            (3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they
                            provided food to us')<br>
                            <br>
                            (4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they
                            provided us with food')<br>
                            <br>
                            While indirective/secundative alternations
                            have been described <br>
                            repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations
                            are little-known, and seem <br>
                            to be quite rare. Is this impression
                            correct?<br>
                            <br>
                            Thanks,<br>
                            <br>
                            Martin<br>
                            <br>
                            -- <br>
                            Martin Haspelmath<br>
                            Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary
                            Anthropology<br>
                            Deutscher Platz 6<br>
                            D-04103 Leipzig<br>
                            <a
href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eva.mpg.de%2Flinguistic-and-cultural-evolution%2Fstaff%2Fmartin-haspelmath%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cpa2%40mysoas.onmicrosoft.com%7Cfbd0d937e0024454098608dc99021b32%7C674dd0a1ae6242c7a39f69ee199537a8%7C0%7C0%7C638553481531300351%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Fk%2BOgeldXwuKKViruD6L3V%2BAXojpaM2NZAuKlpWpHdk%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
                            <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
                      Lingtyp mailing list<br>
                      <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
                      <a
href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a
href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/"
            moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></pre>
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