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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Well, to try and take a swing at my own question: volitional action is part of the crosslinguistic prototype of transitivity postulated by Hopper & Thompson (1980). Suggesting that
the ergative case frame corresponds better to said prototype than the instrumental case frame.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">(I have no doubt that the ergative pattern is also more frequent in discourse. But I’m not sure how much I’m willing to make of that.)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">But that doesn’t mean that we don’t have two transitive clause constructions – only that one is closer to the hypothetical (but at this point really well-supported) crosslinguistic
prototype than the other. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">OTOH nothing prevents us from treating the two as variants of a single transitive construction differing in light verb, case marking on the highest-ranked argument, morphological transitivity
of the “heavy” verb, and of course the semantic property of volitionality. It all depends on the goal of description/comparison.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Best – Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Hopper, P. J., & S. A. Thompson. (1980). Transitivity in grammar and discourse.
<i>Language</i> 56(2): 251-299.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
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</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
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There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 2, 2024 at 18:29<br>
<b>To: </b>Matthew Dryer <dryer@buffalo.edu>, Martin Haspelmath <martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de>, LINGTYP LINGTYP <LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear all – I’m finding this discussion very interesting but super-confusing. Can we clarify what it means for a language to have “two transitive constructions”?
By what properties may these differ from one another, and why, in what sense, and perhaps for whom would it be a problem if there are languages that have them?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Fwiw., the two Urdu case frames I cited both occur in clauses that are syntactically transitive, even though the one involving an instrumental-marked agent/force
involves verb forms that are morphologically intransitive. The criterion for syntactic transitivity is in this case simply that the P NP remains a prototypical object.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">(Martin suggested that the instrumental case in this case acts as a sort of alternative ergative. That’s true as far as core argument alignment is concerned.
But the same case is also used with prototypical instruments.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">So why not say that Urdu has two transitive clause constructions distinguished by case frame and the semantic property of intentionality/control on the part
of the highest-ranked argument?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Best – Juergen </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Matthew Dryer via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 2, 2024 at 14:55<br>
<b>To: </b>Martin Haspelmath <martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de>, LINGTYP LINGTYP <LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Addressing the more general question of whether there can be two constructions both of which are transitive, but ignoring the fact that Martin is apparently only interested
in his query in cases where there is argument flagging, I argued in Dryer (1994) that in Ktunaxa (aka Kutenai), both the direct and inverse constructions are transitive, though the direct is about three times as frequent. I believe that there are even stronger
arguments for the analogous contrast in some Algonquian languages. While the obviation systems of Ktunaxa and Algonquian indirectly function to some extent like a flagging system, I doubt that Martin would count them as such.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">I argued in a conference talk I gave in 1995 that the closer in frequency two alternative constructions are, the more likely that both constructions will exhibit transitivity.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Matthew</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;background:white">Dryer, Matthew S. 1994. “The discourse function of the Kutenai inverse". In </span><i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Voice and
Inversion</span></i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">, edited by T. Givon, pp. 65-99. John Benjamins.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;background:white"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;background:white">Dryer, Matthew S.
</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">1995 “Explaining the intransitivity of passive clauses”. Invited plenary talk at Conference on Functional Approaches, Albuquerque.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Martin Haspelmath <martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 2, 2024 at 1:34</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Matthew Dryer <dryer@buffalo.edu>, LINGTYP LINGTYP <LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">On 01.07.24 19:00, Matthew Dryer wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">I don’t understand why you say “<span style="color:#212121">by definition, a transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the cases)”. Why
can there not be two transitive patterns, neither of which is dominant?</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#212121">Matthew</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">I'm not entirely sure (which is why I posted the query), but it seems to me that the definition of "transitive" requires that there be a single transitive pattern. In English, for example, (i) is dominant over
(ii), so we do not say that both are transitive, and that "at" is an accusative preposition. Instead, we say that "at" is an oblique marker.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">(i) They shot the bear.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">(ii) They shot at the bear.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">Lazard (2002) explains how the notion of transitivity can be grounded in the notion of "the major biactant construction" of a language. He does not say explicitly that there can only be one such construction,
but it seems to be presupposed. In my (2011) paper (on S, A, P, T, R), I rely on Lazard, and I also mostly assume that there is just one transitive construction. I was unsure what to do with cases like Yupik (mentioned by Tony Woodbury in this thread), so
I mostly ignored them (but I briefly mentioned Tagalog in n. 12).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Angute-m(A) nayiq(P) ner-aa</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">man-ERG.SG seal.ABS.SG eat-IND.3SG.3SG</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">’The man is eating /has (just) eaten the seal’</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Angun(S) nayir-mek(P) ner’-uq.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">man.ABS.SG seal-ABM.SG eat-IND.3SG</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">’The man is/has (just) eaten a/the seal’</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">It seems to me that the way Tony labels the arguments here is not well-motivated: Why is ergative-marked "angute-m" an A in the first sentence, but absolutive-marked
"angun" an S in the second sentence? Why is 'seal' a P in both sentences?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">It's logically possible to say that both these sentences are transitive, each with an A and a P, but do we actually want to say that? Do we want to say that the Yupik
ABM ("ablative-modalis") is an accusative case? I'm not sure, so I asked whether any language had been described in this way (does Miyaoka 2012 say that?). Maybe one problem is that making a distinction between a pattern with a dominant member (as in English
(i) and (ii)) and a pattern where there is not clearly a dominant member (as in Yupik) boils down to frequency, and linguists are often reluctant to make such decisions on the basis of frequency of use.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Denis Creissels cites the example of Balinese (from Udayana 2013):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Cang n-yemak baju ento.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">I ACT-take shirt DEM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">'I look the shirt.' (Actor Voice, accusative alignment(?))</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Baju ento jemak cang.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">shirt DEM PAT.take I</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">'I look the shirt.' (Patient Voice, ergative alignment(?))</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">However, there is no argument flagging here (so the "alignment" concerns only word order), and the Actor Voice is characterized by a voice prefix, so it's not an uncoded
alternation (unlike the English indirective/secundative alternation, and unlike the Yupik alternation cited above).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Perhaps the issue boils down to how exactly we individuate the relevant constructions. For example, Creissels (2024) often talks about "variants of the transitive construction",
which seems to be in line with Lazard's (2002) presupposition that there is one "major biactant construction", but do we want to say that the two Yupik sentences cited by Tony Woodbury are "variants of the Yupik transitive construction"? I'm not sure.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Thanks for the discussion!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">References</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="margin-left:24.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-24.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">Creissels, Denis. 2024.
<i>Transitivity, valency and voice</i>. Oxford: Oxford University Press (to appear).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-24.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">Haspelmath, Martin. 2011. On S, A, P, T, and R as comparative concepts for alignment typology.
<i>Linguistic Typology</i> 15(3). 535–567.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-24.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">Lazard, Gilbert. 2002. Transitivity revisited as an example of a more strict approach in typological research.
<i>Folia Linguistica</i> 36(3–4). 141–190. (doi:<a href="https://doi.org/10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141">10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141</a>)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-24.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">Miyaoka, Osahito. 2012.
<i>A grammar of Central Alaskan Yupik</i>. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-24.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">Udayana, I Nyoman. 2013.
<i>Voice and reflexives in Balinese</i>. Austin: University of Texas at Austin. (PhD dissertation.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container">
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<b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, July 1, 2024 at 2:00</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AM<br>
<b>To: </b>LINGTYP LINGTYP <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org"><LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">Thanks for the comments on my query!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">I was thinking of a contrast between (i) ALTERNATIONS and (ii) SPLITS, where an alternation is a pair of related patterns with overlapping distributions, while a split is a set of patterns that complement each
other. Thus, the TAM splits in languages like Pitta-Pitta (Peter Austin) and Kopar (Bill Foley) do not count here.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">Misha Daniel is right that it is not clear how to even identify
</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">"accusative/ergative alternations", and for this reason I had asked about languages which have been "described as exhibiting" such an alternation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">It seems to me that one needs to specify that by definition, a transitive pattern is a dominant one (occurring in more than two thirds of the cases), so that if there are two competing
patterns none of which is dominant, one cannot identify a transitive pattern – and as a result, there is no way to identify "accusative" or "ergative". A well-known case of a language with no dominant agent-patient pattern (and hence no transitivity) is Tagalog.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">(This is different for ditransitive constructions, which need not be dominant in this sense, because the comparison is with monotransitive P, aas Misha notes.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">Jürgen Bohnemeyer's example from Hindi-Urdu seems more like an alternation between two ergative patterns (one in which the ergative is "instrumental"), but it also illustrates the difficulty
of matching language-particular phenomena with comparative concepts if the latter are not very clearly defined.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">Martin</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">On 30.06.24 16:07, Michael Daniel wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">I am not sure how to operationalize the notions of accusative and ergative in this context. Assuming one uses the standard procedure of comparing the bivalent pattern
to the intransitive one, I guess some unmarked antipassive constructions would qualify. Thus, in Mehweb Dargwa, East Caucasian, which lacks regular antipassive derivation, the verb 'carry' has two alternative valencies:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Agent-Erg carries Theme-Nom (ergative pattern
<i>on the basis of comparison</i> with X goes)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Agent-Nom carries Theme-Erg (accusative pattern
<i>on the bases of comparison</i> with X goes)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">But,
<i>on the basis of comparison</i> with other transitive verbs, the second pattern is intransitive, so this would not qualify as accusative in the usual sense. Yet, I do not clearly see what would be possible other grounds to identify an ergative / accusative
alternation, even in the presence of a TAM or animacy based split, because in your requirement these variables should be controlled for. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">This is different from the situation of secundative / indirective alternation, which is possible to identify in a language because they are identified on alignment-independent
grounds (comparison to the encoding of P). Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how this is done in the case of the putative ergative / accusative uncoded alternation. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Misha</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">вс, 30 июн. 2024</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">г. в 14:48, Peter
Austin via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Assuming you do not mean TAM-based split ergativity, e.g. Pitta-Pitta.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Best</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">Peter</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2024 1:41:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> LINGTYP LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] languages with accusative/ergative alternation</span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know of a language that has been described as exhibiting an <br>
accusative/ergative alternation, i.e. where verbs with meanings like <br>
'break' or 'chase' can occur in two constructions such as (1) and (2) <br>
(which are schematic examples, not English)?<br>
<br>
(1) the dog-NOM chased the cat-ACC<br>
<br>
(2) the dog-ERG chased the cat-NOM<br>
<br>
Such an alternation would be analogous to indirective/secundative <br>
alternations, as in the schematic examples (3) and (4).<br>
<br>
(3) they provided food-ACC us-DAT ('they provided food to us')<br>
<br>
(4) they provided us-ACC food-INS ('they provided us with food')<br>
<br>
While indirective/secundative alternations have been described <br>
repeatedly, accusative/ergative alternations are little-known, and seem <br>
to be quite rare. Is this impression correct?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Martin Haspelmath<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6<br>
D-04103 Leipzig<br>
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eva.mpg.de%2Flinguistic-and-cultural-evolution%2Fstaff%2Fmartin-haspelmath%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cpa2%40mysoas.onmicrosoft.com%7Cfbd0d937e0024454098608dc99021b32%7C674dd0a1ae6242c7a39f69ee199537a8%7C0%7C0%7C638553481531300351%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Fk%2BOgeldXwuKKViruD6L3V%2BAXojpaM2NZAuKlpWpHdk%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">-- </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">Martin Haspelmath</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">Deutscher Platz 6</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">D-04103 Leipzig</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA"><a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">-- </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">Martin Haspelmath</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">Deutscher Platz 6</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">D-04103 Leipzig</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA"><a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
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