<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Thanks, Nigel, Andrew, Marianne, and Jürgen!<div><br></div><div>Jürgen, I think the generic sense of the examples you cite might come from the use of “average” with the phrase, but also might be partially due to the larger context.</div><div><br></div><div>Randy<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 18 Jul 2024, at 3:58 AM, Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77@buffalo.edu> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
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<div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear all – You‘ll find plenty of examples in COCA etc. if you search for the phrase _<i>your average</i>_:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Your</span></b><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> <b>average</b> polite American will look the waiter or waitress in the eye, smile, have…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Their problem was simply a poor location in the minds of <b>your</b> <b>average</b> theater-goer.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">…CHopper would have packed a bigger punch and would have traveled much farther than <b>your</b> <b>average</b> motorcycle. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">And on and on. But, this use seems to be restricted to a form of generic reference. I don’t think this is about definiteness per se or definiteness in any narrow sense.
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Best – Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
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Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;"> <br>
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</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="">From: </span></b><span style="">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Marianne Mithun via Lingtyp <LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, July 17, 2024 at 15:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc: </b><LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Discourse functions of possessive markers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Dear Misha and Zahra,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Good observation. I was thinking of exactly the kinds of examples Randy mentions second:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you’ve got your formalists, your functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Pretty common, I'd say, at least in North America. (Not something I myself would say, of course!)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Marianne<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 11:38<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM Randy J. LaPolla via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Dear Michael,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Are you thinking of the listing use of “your”, as in the following made-up example? (I normally don’t like using made-up examples, but when I tried to search for a natural example the results were overwhelmed by
the song “You’ve got your troubles and I‘ve got mine”.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">What kinds of linguists are there? Well, you’ve got your formalists, your functionalists, your cognitivists, your typologists . . .<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Here “your” could be replaced by “the”, so it does seem to fit what Zahra is looking for. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">I have certainly heard this sort of thing, but don’t know if it is restricted to a particular region, though to my ear it sounds better with a Brooklyn accent (as does everything else ;-) ).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Randy<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On 18 Jul 2024, at 2:10<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM, Michael Daniel via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Dear Zahra, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">I think I heard a variety of American English where "your" was used in a very much discourse way, literally on one NP out of three or four. I cannot describe the function properly (probably, supporting contact with
the interlocutor) and cannot place it regionally - maybe native speakers will help.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Michael Daniel<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">--<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Михаил Даниэль<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><i>Я осуждаю агрессию моей страны против Украины.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Michael Daniel<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><i>I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
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</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">вт, 16 июл. 2024<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>г. в 14:53, Zahra Etebari Shekarsaraei via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Dear all,<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
I am preparing a dataset for development of discourse functions in possessive/personal markers cross-linguistically. I am particularly interested in constructions (relevant examples below) where a possessive/personal marker is used not to convey possession
or refer to another item, but to denote functions such as definiteness, topicality, emphasis or contrast.
<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.5in">
<u>Definiteness</u><span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span lang="SV"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">a.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Kútip tur<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">ǵ</span>an
<b>adamı</b> kelmedi. [Karakalpak]<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-left:.5in"><b>The person</b> he/she has been waiting for did not come.<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-left:.5in">(Utepovich 2023: 80)<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-left:.5in"> <span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.5in">
<u>Contrast</u><span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span lang="SV"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">b.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Ulizy-vylizy kyk bratjos,
<b>pokći-ez</b> [Udmurt]<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
lived-were.3SG two brothers <b>
younger.brother-3SG</b><span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
kuaner, <b>by</b><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">ȝ</span></b><b>ym-ez</b> uzyr.<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Poor <b>older.brother-3SG</b> rich<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
There lived two brothers, the younger one was poor, the older one was rich.<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
(Serebrennikov 1963: 133)<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
So far, I have collected cases from over 60 language varieties spanning Uralic (Ugric, Permic, Mari, Mordvin, Samoyed), Altaic (Turkic, Tungusic, Mongolic), Indo-European (Iranic), Afro-Asiatic (Semitic), and Austronesian (Javanese, Malay) families. If you
have encountered similar uses in a language you work on or if you are aware of any lesser-known source on this topic, especially non-English sources, I would be extremely grateful if you could share them with me.<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Many thanks for your time!<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Best wishes,<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Zahra<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
References:<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
Serebrennikov, Boris A. 1963. <i>Istoriceskaja Morfologija Permskix Jazykov</i> [Historical morphology of the Permic languages]. Moscow:
<span style="background: white;">Izdateľstvo AN SSSR</span>.<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
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Utepovich, Bekbergenov H. 2023. Semantic peculiarities of the possessive affixes in the Karakalpak language and their equivalents in English.
<i>Journal of Advanced Linguistic Studies</i>. 10(2). 64-82.<span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">
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