<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear Christian and colleagues,<div><br></div><div>As pointed out by Sasha, the retroactive meaning is indeed expressed by associated motion in many languages. In Japhug, it is expressed by a construction involving the verb /ru~re/, which <i>requires</i> associated motion markers. It is the only such verb in Japhug (see Jacques 2021:701-705 <a href="https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295">A grammar of Japhug | Language Science Press (langsci-press.org)</a>). </div><div><br></div><div>Motion verbs in Japhug encode orientation along three axes (vertical, solar and fluvial), and interestingly with this verb the orientation refers to the way back, not the way towards the place where the taking action is realized (see Jacques 2021:702):</div><div><br></div><div>(223) sɤcɯ z-ɲɯ-re-a</div><div>key go&do-ipfv:west-bring/fetch[III]-1sg</div><div>"I will fetch the key." (first go towards east, take the key, the come back towards the west)/</div><div><br></div><div>Guillaume</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le jeu. 8 août 2024 à 12:47, Sasha Wilmoth via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-4301963994293092887">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dear Christian, all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">This can also be found in some systems of associated motion, e.g. Kaytetye:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Erlkwe aynewantheyenge ane mamey-eynenge aynewantheyenge enwe-<b>nyeyaytne</b>-nke<br>
old.man 1pl.incl.poss(nom) and mother-coll 1pl.incl.poss(nom) lie-<b>GO&DO&RET-</b>prs<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">‘The old men and our mothers used to go and camp out and return’<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">(Turpin & Ross 2012 cited in Koch 2021, p. 246)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">See:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Guillaume, A., & Koch, H. (Eds.). (2021).
<i>Associated Motion</i>. De Gruyter. <a href="https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110692099" target="_blank">
https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110692099</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">The introduction lists some terms: bidirectional, roundtrip, counterdirectional, returnative, go&do&return<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dr Sasha Wilmoth<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Lecturer in Linguistics<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">School of Languages and Linguistics<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">University of Melbourne</span><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Alex Francois via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 8 August 2024 at 8:31</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a> <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] retrolative<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">dear Christian,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">As a point of reference, it may be interesting to note that the semantic feature of retrolative would be expressed analytically in languages with (certain types of) verb serialization.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">For example, consider the Papuan language Kalam, as described in
<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf" target="_blank">
Pawley (2009)</a>:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Pawley, Andrew. 2009. On the origins of serial verb constructions in Kalam. In Talmy Givón & Masayoshi Shibatani (eds.),
<i>Syntactic complexity: Diachrony, acquisition, neuro-cognition, evolution</i> (Typological Studies in Language v. 85), 119–144. Amsterdam</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">;
Philadelphia: Benjamins.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Pawley cites various examples of
<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf#page=4" target="_blank">
this type</a>:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">(1)
<b>am </b>mab pu-wk d <b>ap</b> agl kn-la-k. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> <b>go
</b>wood hit-break.up get <b>come </b>ignite sleep-3PL-PAST </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> “They gathered firewood for the night.”</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"> [lit. ‘They went and gathered firewood and brought it, made a fire and slept.']</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">The retrolative semantic component is here encoded analytically, using distinct (serialized) verbs “go... get...
<u>come</u>...”.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Pawley calls such event-types “collecting expeditions”, and shows that the serial pattern is grammaticalized, i.e. linguistically entrenched in the phraseological / formulaic
routines of Kalam. <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrew-Pawley/publication/300841393_On_the_origins_of_serial_verb_constructions_in_Kalam/links/58d0fd8b4585158476f36662/On-the-origins-of-serial-verb-constructions-in-Kalam.pdf#page=18" target="_blank">
On p.135</a> he provides the recipe for the pattern:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><img border="0" width="472" height="250" style="width: 4.9166in; height: 2.6041in;" id="m_-4301963994293092887_x0000_i1026" src="cid:ii_191319d9234cb971f161"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Similar analytic strategies for the retrolative meaning can be found in other serializing languages, at least in those where the sequence of clauses iconically reflects a sequence
of (sub)events. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">[NB: In another type of serializing languages, all verbs must reflect simultaneous facets of a single event; they would not work in the same way.]<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Think also of constructions in -</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">て来る</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> <i>-te
kuru </i></span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">[-Converb come] </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">in colloquial Japanese:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">e.g.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">(2) </span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">買い物に行って<b>来</b>るよ。</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">
<i>Kaimono=ni it-te ku-ru yo.</i><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> shopping=OBL go-CVB <b>come</b>-Npst PTC</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> “I'm going grocery-shopping.” [lit. I'll go shopping
<u>and come</u>.]<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">best<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Alex</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<hr size="1" width="70" style="width:52.5pt" noshade align="left">
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<p><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(69,129,142)">Alex François</span><span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><a href="http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/" target="_blank"><span style="text-decoration:none">LaTTiCe</span></a> — <a href="http://www.cnrs.fr/index.html" title="ENS" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none">CNRS–</span></a><a href="https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094" title="ENS" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none">ENS</span></a>–<a href="https://www.psl.eu/en" title="ENS" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none">PSL</span></a>–<a href="http://www.univ-paris3.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" title="ENS" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none">Sorbonne
nouvelle</span></a><br>
<a href="https://researchprofiles.anu.edu.au/en/persons/alex-francois" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none">Australian National University</span></a></span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><a href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none">Personal
homepage</span></a></span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt">_________________________________________</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>
From: <strong><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp</span></strong> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2024 at 10:19<br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] retrolative<br>
To: <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Dear colleagues,<br>
<br>
I was told occasionally that there is a local relation - let's call it retrolative - consisting of a movement to reference point R and back to the point of departure. In the languages that have it in their grammar, it would be in a paradigm with ablative, allative,
perlative. Unless I am mistaken, English only has it embodied in the meaning of <i>
fetch</i>, and likewise in German <i>holen</i>.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:12pt">Is retrolative the right term, or is the relation known under a different term?<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:12pt">Please give me a representative example of the type 'Jane went to R round-trip' or 'Jane fetched the axe from the shed' using a retrolative case or adposition or a retrolative formative in some other structural category.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Thanks in advance,<br>
Christian<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Tel.:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">+49/361/2113417<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">E-Post:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"><a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Web:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt"><a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>Guillaume Jacques</div><div><br></div><div>Directeur de recherches<br>CNRS (CRLAO) - EPHE- INALCO <br></div><div><a href="https://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=1XCp2-oAAAAJ&hl=fr" target="_blank">https://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=1XCp2-oAAAAJ&hl=fr</a><br></div><div><a href="http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques" target="_blank">https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295</a></div><div><div><a href="http://panchr.hypotheses.org/" target="_blank">http://panchr.hypotheses.org/</a></div></div></div></div>