<div dir="ltr">I wonder if there is any difference, however, between "flammable" and "inflammable", both defined as "easily set on fire". Maybe that's a different in-?<div><br></div><div>I'm not sure about the relation between the verbs "thaw" and "unthaw"? For me they are synonymous when used transitively ('we have to (un)thaw this meat for dinner"), although I would often say "thaw out', especially intransitively ('the meat has finally thawed (out)'; ?unthawed... hm, maybe it OK). In looking up the words there seem to be some potential differences. I'm not familiar with "unthawing a frozen tank valve" :-)!<div><br></div><div><span class="gmail-d9FyLd" style="padding:0px 0px 10px;color:rgb(31,31,31);font-family:"Google Sans",Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:20px;display:block">thaw verb (BECOME NOT FROZEN)</span><span class="gmail-hgKElc" style="padding:0px 8px 0px 0px;color:rgb(31,31,31);font-family:"Google Sans",Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:20px"><span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,rgb(211,227,253) 50%,rgba(0,0,0,0) 50%) 0% 0px/200% 100% no-repeat rgb(211,227,253);color:rgb(4,12,40)">to (cause to) change from a solid, frozen state to a liquid or soft one, because of an increase in temperature</span>: Allow the meat to thaw completely before cooking it. The sun came out and thawed the ice.</span><br><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,29,53);font-family:"Google Sans",Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:18px">"Unthaw" is a verb that means to cause something to become soft or liquid, or to become soft or liquid itself. </span><span style="color:rgb(0,29,53);font-family:"Google Sans",Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:18px">For example, you can unthaw a frozen tank valve or a frozen sewage line. </span><span style="color:rgb(0,29,53);font-family:"Google Sans",Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:18px">Some synonyms of "unthaw" include: </span><span style="color:rgb(0,29,53);font-family:"Google Sans",Roboto,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:18px">Dthaw [?], Dissolve, Melt, Thaw, and Unfreeze</span></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 16, 2024 at 5:18 AM ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-7146348452129701265">
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<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">I fully agree with Bastian which perhaps expresses more clearly what I meant by “high degree”: subjective evaluation pointing to an extreme degree (indescribable, inexpressible), positive or negative depending on the
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<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">To take on this meaning, lexical negation must be combined with a gradable (or scalar) notion. In the case of nouns, this typically involves mass nouns, such as Menge (crowd), Tiefe (depth) vs. Freiheit (freedom).</div>
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<div id="m_-7146348452129701265divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> de la part de Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 16 août 2024 14:15<br>
<b>À :</b> Bastian Persohn<br>
<b>Cc :</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font>
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<p>Well, the point is that these words contain what synchronically looks like a negator affix even though that affix does not negate the stem. So, they seem to qualify for the phenomenon the original post was about. </p>
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<p>But I like the idea that the function has shifted as part of a subjectification (?) process. Does that happen with negators cross-linguistically?</p>
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Tim<br>
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<div id="m_-7146348452129701265divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>Von:</b> Bastian Persohn <<a href="mailto:persohn.linguistics@gmail.com" target="_blank">persohn.linguistics@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag, 16. August 2024 13:55<br>
<b>An:</b> Zingler, Tim<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font>
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<div>I’m not sure that <i>Untiefe</i> is synonymous with <i>Tiefe</i>, or <i>Unmenge</i> with
<i>Menge</i>. In my intuition <i>Un-menge</i> has an evaluative ring to it (‚an undesirably large or over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS translates it as ’sehr große, übergroße Menge’ [very big, unnecessary big amount]’. Similarly,
<i>Un-tiefe</i> usually refers to an extreme depth (cf. DWDS: ‚abgrundartige, sehr große Tiefe in einem Gewässer [abysm-like, very large depth in a body of water]‘.
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<div>Their closest relatives are probably found in instances like <i>Un-fall</i> ‚accident‘ <
<i>Fall</i> ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the undesirable case‘ or <i>Un-tier</i> ‚monster‘, lit ‚un-animal‘. What all these have in common is a negative element, albeit in the subjective rather than the material domain.</div>
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<div>Best,</div>
<div>Bastian
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<div>Am 16.08.2024 um 13:10 schrieb Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:</div>
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<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">German has <i>Un-tiefe</i>, which essentially means the same as<span> </span><i>Tiefe</i> 'depth'. Or<span> </span><i>Un-menge</i>, largely synonymous
with<span> </span><i>Menge</i> 'mass, crowd, great amount.' These seem perfectly analogous to<span> </span><i>valuable-invaluable</i>.</div>
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<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">I'm sure there's more, but I don't know if that prefix is cognate with the negator found in, for instance,<span> </span><i>Un-freiheit</i> 'unfreedom.' So, there are probably complications
involved if one were to analyze that more seriously.</div>
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Tim<br>
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<div id="m_-7146348452129701265divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>Von:</b><span> </span>Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> im Auftrag von ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b><span> </span>Freitag, 16. August 2024 11:48<br>
<b>An:</b><span> </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b><span> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font>
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<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Dear Joe,<span> </span><br>
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<div>Personally, I do not regard these uses of lexical negation as expletive but rather as contributing a construction with a high-degree value that can be paraphrased as follows: 'this object is (valuable) to a degree that I (speaker) cannot (even) express',
or '<span><b>no</b><span> </span>matter how hard I try to estimate how much X is P, I<b><span> </span>can't</b><span> </span>express it'<span>(P for predicate)</span>.</span></div>
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Note that in the examples I can analyse (Germanic, English and also French '<i>in-estim-able</i>'), this lexical negation is combined with a suffix (cf. Germ. -<i>bar</i>, Eng. < Fr. -<i>able</i>) which contributes to the meaning of the construction because
it expresses evaluation about capacity ‘which can be P’ .<br>
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<div>Best<br>
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<font size="2">Stéphane ROBERT</font>
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<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size="2"><a href="https://llacan.cnrs.fr/" id="m_-7146348452129701265LPlnk617633" target="_blank">https://llacan.cnrs.fr</a><br>
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<div id="m_-7146348452129701265divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b><span> </span>Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> de la part de Hannu Tommola via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b><span> </span>vendredi 16 août 2024 11:03<br>
<b>À :</b><span> </span><<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>>; Pun Ho Lui<br>
<b>Objet :</b><span> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font>
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Hi,</div>
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there seems to be a tendency to lexicalize 'invaluable' in an intensifying non-negative meaning (cf. Russian<span> </span><i>bes-cennyj</i> 'invaluable, priceless', which has an obsolete meaning 'valueless' =<span> </span><i>ne-cennyj</i>).
This tendency goes back to the verb 'value' that has, in various languages, both the meanings 1) 'estimate', 2) 'regard/estimate highly'. Cf. also German<span> </span><i>un-schätzbar</i> 'invaluable' <<span> </span><i>schätzen</i> 1.
'to regard highly, respect', 2. 'value, estimate'; the same applies to Swedish<i>o-skattbar</i> <<span> </span><i>(upp)skatta</i>.</div>
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Best wishes,</div>
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Hannu Tommola</div>
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<div id="m_-7146348452129701265divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>Lähettäjä:</b><span> </span>Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> käyttäjän Pun Ho Lui via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
puolesta<br>
<b>Lähetetty:</b><span> </span>perjantai 16. elokuuta 2024 3.22<br>
<b>Vastaanottaja:</b><span> </span><<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Aihe:</b><span> </span>[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font>
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<div>Dear linguists,
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<div>I am recently interested in lexical items that consist of a derivational negative affix which may not contribute a negative meaning (i.e. being expletive). </div>
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<div>For instance,<span> </span><i>in-valuable</i><span> </span>~<span> </span><i>valuable</i>. Other possible examples would be 無價 ‘invaluable [lit. NEG value’ in Mandarin,
and<span> </span><i>sewashi-nai</i><span> </span>‘restless’ ~<span> </span><i>sewashii</i><span> </span>‘busy’ in Japanese.</div>
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<div>I have looked into a number of (decent) grammar descriptions but have no luck.</div>
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<div>I am wondering if you know of any language with similar items.</div>
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<div>Thank you.</div>
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<div>Warmest,</div>
<div>Pun Ho Lui Joe</div>
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</div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Larry M. Hyman, Distinguished Professor of the Graduate School</div><div>& Director, France-Berkeley Fund, University of California, Berkeley</div><div><a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>