<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">I’m not sure that <i>Untiefe</i> is synonymous with <i>Tiefe</i>, or <i>Unmenge</i> with <i>Menge</i>. In my intuition <i>Un-menge</i> has an evaluative ring to it (‚an undesirably large or over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS translates it as ’sehr große, übergroße Menge’ [very big, unnecessary big amount]’. Similarly, <i>Un-tiefe</i> usually refers to an extreme depth (cf. DWDS: ‚abgrundartige, sehr große Tiefe in einem Gewässer [abysm-like, very large depth in a body of water]‘.<div><br></div><div>Their closest relatives are probably found in instances like <i>Un-fall</i> ‚accident‘ < <i>Fall</i> ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the undesirable case‘ or <i>Un-tier</i> ‚monster‘, lit ‚un-animal‘. What all these have in common is a negative element, albeit in the subjective rather than the material domain.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Bastian <div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Am 16.08.2024 um 13:10 schrieb Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org>:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, Helvetica, EmojiFont, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", NotoColorEmoji, "Segoe UI Symbol", "Android Emoji", EmojiSymbols;"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">German has <i>Un-tiefe</i>, which essentially means the same as<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Tiefe</i> 'depth'. Or<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Un-menge</i>, largely synonymous with<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Menge</i> 'mass, crowd, great amount.' These seem perfectly analogous to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>valuable-invaluable</i>.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">I'm sure there's more, but I don't know if that prefix is cognate with the negator found in, for instance,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Un-freiheit</i> 'unfreedom.' So, there are probably complications involved if one were to analyze that more seriously.</div><br>Best,</div><div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, Helvetica, EmojiFont, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", NotoColorEmoji, "Segoe UI Symbol", "Android Emoji", EmojiSymbols;"><br></div><div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, Helvetica, EmojiFont, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", NotoColorEmoji, "Segoe UI Symbol", "Android Emoji", EmojiSymbols;">Tim<br><div style=""><hr tabindex="-1" style="display: inline-block; width: 1085.828125px;"><div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;"><b>Von:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag von ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br><b>Gesendet:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Freitag, 16. August 2024 11:48<br><b>An:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br><b>Betreff:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font><div> </div></div><div><div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif, Helvetica, EmojiFont, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", NotoColorEmoji, "Segoe UI Symbol", "Android Emoji", EmojiSymbols;"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Dear Joe,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br></div><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"></p><div>Personally, I do not regard these uses of lexical negation as expletive but rather as contributing a construction with a high-degree value that can be paraphrased as follows: 'this object is (valuable) to a degree that I (speaker) cannot (even) express', or '<span><b>no</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>matter how hard I try to estimate how much X is P, I<b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>can't</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>express it'<span>(P for predicate)</span>.</span></div><div><br>Note that in the examples I can analyse (Germanic, English and also French '<i>in-estim-able</i>'), this lexical negation is combined with a suffix (cf. Germ. -<i>bar</i>, Eng. < Fr. -<i>able</i>) which contributes to the meaning of the construction because it expresses evaluation about capacity ‘which can be P’ .<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best<br><br></div><font size="2">Stéphane ROBERT</font><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><font size="2"><a href="https://llacan.cnrs.fr/" class="OWAAutoLink" id="LPlnk617633" previewremoved="true">https://llacan.cnrs.fr</a><br></font></div><div id="Signature"><div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif, EmojiFont, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", NotoColorEmoji, "Segoe UI Symbol", "Android Emoji", EmojiSymbols;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 13px;"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=""><hr tabindex="-1" style="display: inline-block; width: 1085.828125px;"><div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;"><b>De :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de Hannu Tommola via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br><b>Envoyé :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>vendredi 16 août 2024 11:03<br><b>À :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>; Pun Ho Lui<br><b>Objet :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font><div> </div></div><div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Hi,</div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">there seems to be a tendency to lexicalize 'invaluable' in an intensifying non-negative meaning (cf. Russian<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>bes-cennyj</i> 'invaluable, priceless', which has an obsolete meaning 'valueless' =<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>ne-cennyj</i>). This tendency goes back to the verb 'value' that has, in various languages, both the meanings 1) 'estimate', 2) 'regard/estimate highly'. Cf. also German<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>un-schätzbar</i> 'invaluable' <<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>schätzen</i> 1. 'to regard highly, respect', 2. 'value, estimate'; the same applies to Swedish<i>o-skattbar</i> <<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>(upp)skatta</i>.</div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Best wishes,</div><div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">Hannu Tommola</div><div id="appendonsend"></div><hr tabindex="-1" style="display: inline-block; width: 1085.828125px;"><div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;"><b>Lähettäjä:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> käyttäjän Pun Ho Lui via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org> puolesta<br><b>Lähetetty:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>perjantai 16. elokuuta 2024 3.22<br><b>Vastaanottaja:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG> <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br><b>Aihe:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font><div> </div></div><div style="line-break: after-white-space;">Dear linguists,<div><br></div><div>I am recently interested in lexical items that consist of a derivational negative affix which may not contribute a negative meaning (i.e. being expletive). </div><div><br></div><div>For instance,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>in-valuable</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>~<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>valuable</i>. Other possible examples would be 無價 ‘invaluable [lit. NEG value’ in Mandarin, and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>sewashi-nai</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>‘restless’ ~<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>sewashii</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>‘busy’ in Japanese.</div><div><br></div><div>I have looked into a number of (decent) grammar descriptions but have no luck.</div><div><br></div><div>I am wondering if you know of any language with similar items.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you.</div><div><br></div><div>Warmest,</div><div>Pun Ho Lui Joe</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Lingtyp mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>