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<p>Well, the point is that these words contain what synchronically looks like a negator affix even though that affix does not negate the stem. So, they seem to qualify for the phenomenon the original post was about. </p>
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<p>But I like the idea that the function has shifted as part of a subjectification (?) process. Does that happen with negators cross-linguistically?</p>
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Tim<br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>Von:</b> Bastian Persohn <persohn.linguistics@gmail.com><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag, 16. August 2024 13:55<br>
<b>An:</b> Zingler, Tim<br>
<b>Cc:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font>
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<div>I’m not sure that <i>Untiefe</i> is synonymous with <i>Tiefe</i>, or <i>Unmenge</i> with
<i>Menge</i>. In my intuition <i>Un-menge</i> has an evaluative ring to it (‚an undesirably large or over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS translates it as ’sehr große, übergroße Menge’ [very big, unnecessary big amount]’. Similarly,
<i>Un-tiefe</i> usually refers to an extreme depth (cf. DWDS: ‚abgrundartige, sehr große Tiefe in einem Gewässer [abysm-like, very large depth in a body of water]‘.
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<div>Their closest relatives are probably found in instances like <i>Un-fall</i> ‚accident‘ <
<i>Fall</i> ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the undesirable case‘ or <i>Un-tier</i> ‚monster‘, lit ‚un-animal‘. What all these have in common is a negative element, albeit in the subjective rather than the material domain.</div>
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<div>Best,</div>
<div>Bastian
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<div>Am 16.08.2024 um 13:10 schrieb Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org>:</div>
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<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">German has <i>Un-tiefe</i>, which essentially means the same as<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Tiefe</i> 'depth'. Or<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Un-menge</i>, largely synonymous
with<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Menge</i> 'mass, crowd, great amount.' These seem perfectly analogous to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>valuable-invaluable</i>.</div>
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<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">I'm sure there's more, but I don't know if that prefix is cognate with the negator found in, for instance,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Un-freiheit</i> 'unfreedom.' So, there are probably complications
involved if one were to analyze that more seriously.</div>
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Best,</div>
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Tim<br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>Von:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag von ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Freitag, 16. August 2024 11:48<br>
<b>An:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Betreff:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font>
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<div style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">Dear Joe,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
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<div>Personally, I do not regard these uses of lexical negation as expletive but rather as contributing a construction with a high-degree value that can be paraphrased as follows: 'this object is (valuable) to a degree that I (speaker) cannot (even) express',
or '<span><b>no</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>matter how hard I try to estimate how much X is P, I<b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>can't</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>express it'<span>(P for predicate)</span>.</span></div>
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Note that in the examples I can analyse (Germanic, English and also French '<i>in-estim-able</i>'), this lexical negation is combined with a suffix (cf. Germ. -<i>bar</i>, Eng. < Fr. -<i>able</i>) which contributes to the meaning of the construction because
it expresses evaluation about capacity ‘which can be P’ .<br>
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<div>Best<br>
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<font size="2">Stéphane ROBERT</font>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de Hannu Tommola via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>vendredi 16 août 2024 11:03<br>
<b>À :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>; Pun Ho Lui<br>
<b>Objet :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font>
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Hi,</div>
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<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
there seems to be a tendency to lexicalize 'invaluable' in an intensifying non-negative meaning (cf. Russian<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>bes-cennyj</i> 'invaluable, priceless', which has an obsolete meaning 'valueless' =<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>ne-cennyj</i>).
This tendency goes back to the verb 'value' that has, in various languages, both the meanings 1) 'estimate', 2) 'regard/estimate highly'. Cf. also German<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>un-schätzbar</i> 'invaluable' <<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>schätzen</i> 1.
'to regard highly, respect', 2. 'value, estimate'; the same applies to Swedish<i>o-skattbar</i> <<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>(upp)skatta</i>.</div>
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Best wishes,</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
Hannu Tommola</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>Lähettäjä:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> käyttäjän Pun Ho Lui via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org>
puolesta<br>
<b>Lähetetty:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>perjantai 16. elokuuta 2024 3.22<br>
<b>Vastaanottaja:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG> <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Aihe:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</font>
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<div style="line-break:after-white-space">Dear linguists,
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<div>I am recently interested in lexical items that consist of a derivational negative affix which may not contribute a negative meaning (i.e. being expletive). </div>
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<div>For instance,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>in-valuable</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>~<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>valuable</i>. Other possible examples would be 無價 ‘invaluable [lit. NEG value’ in Mandarin,
and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>sewashi-nai</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>‘restless’ ~<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>sewashii</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>‘busy’ in Japanese.</div>
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<div>I have looked into a number of (decent) grammar descriptions but have no luck.</div>
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<div>I am wondering if you know of any language with similar items.</div>
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<div>Thank you.</div>
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<div>Warmest,</div>
<div>Pun Ho Lui Joe</div>
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