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<p>There are some further interesting examples of the German
un-prefix on nouns:<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Un-mensch 'inhuman person'</p>
<p>Un-person 'persona non grata'<br>
</p>
<p>Un-ding 'something unheard of'</p>
<p>Un-zahl 'huge number' (cf. Un-menge)<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I had a look at Grimm's Wörterbuch, where I found some further
examples that I was unaware of, e.g. Un-haufe 'un-heap', Un-masse
'un-mass'. Some of these words seem to be relatively old (16th
cent.), others quite recent (and Unperson may have been influenced
by G. Orwell's English coinage? It seems to have emerged in the
middle of the 20th century in German, according to the DWDS).<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>There's clearly an emotive component to all of these, and I think
they all have a negative connotation. Some of the nouns seem to be
formed on the model of the pattern</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>'Some x that you cannot V (measure, count)' (cf. Stephane's
comment)<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>"Un-mensch" is perhaps the example that's closest to literal
negation, 'someone who is not a human being'. Unding is mostly
used for abstract entities, in my German, and more or less means
'scandal'.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I think I would see these examples as instances of
subjectification and specialization, as others have written or
implied. The core meaning of 'un-' still survives in the negative
evaluation (cf. Bastian). Btw I think that 'Un-menge' also has a
negative evaluation. It's not just a large quantity -- it's a
quantity that's TOO large, according to some standard.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Best,<br>
Volker<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 16.08.2024 um 14:18 schrieb ROBERT
Stephane via Lingtyp:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:005b0a95b35943ec8bf4bc5776fb4513@cnrs.fr">
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<div style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;">I fully agree with
Bastian which perhaps expresses more clearly what I meant by
“high degree”: subjective evaluation pointing to an extreme
degree (indescribable, inexpressible), positive or negative
depending on the notion involved. <br>
</div>
<div style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;">To take on this
meaning, lexical negation must be combined with a gradable
(or scalar) notion. In the case of nouns, this typically
involves mass nouns, such as Menge (crowd), Tiefe (depth)
vs. Freiheit (freedom).</div>
</font>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Stéphane<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"
style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b> Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> de la
part de Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 16 août 2024 14:15<br>
<b>À :</b> Bastian Persohn<br>
<b>Cc :</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational
negation</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
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<p>Well, the point is that these words contain what
synchronically looks like a negator affix even though
that affix does not negate the stem. So, they seem to
qualify for the phenomenon the original post was
about. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>But I like the idea that the function has shifted as
part of a subjectification (?) process. Does that
happen with negators cross-linguistically?</p>
<br>
Best,</div>
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<br>
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Tim<br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
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style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"
style="font-size:11pt"><b>Von:</b> Bastian Persohn
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:persohn.linguistics@gmail.com"><persohn.linguistics@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag, 16. August 2024 13:55<br>
<b>An:</b> Zingler, Tim<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive
derivational negation</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>I’m not sure that <i>Untiefe</i> is synonymous
with <i>Tiefe</i>, or <i>Unmenge</i> with
<i>Menge</i>. In my intuition <i>Un-menge</i> has
an evaluative ring to it (‚an undesirably large or
over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS translates it as
’sehr große, übergroße Menge’ [very big, unnecessary
big amount]’. Similarly,
<i>Un-tiefe</i> usually refers to an extreme depth
(cf. DWDS: ‚abgrundartige, sehr große Tiefe in einem
Gewässer [abysm-like, very large depth in a body of
water]‘.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Their closest relatives are probably found in
instances like <i>Un-fall</i> ‚accident‘ <
<i>Fall</i> ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the undesirable case‘ or
<i>Un-tier</i> ‚monster‘, lit ‚un-animal‘. What
all these have in common is a negative element,
albeit in the subjective rather than the material
domain.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Bastian
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Am 16.08.2024 um 13:10 schrieb Zingler,
Tim via Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
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<div
style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">German has <i>Un-tiefe</i>,
which essentially means the same as<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Tiefe</i> 'depth'.
Or<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Un-menge</i>,
largely synonymous with<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Menge</i> 'mass,
crowd, great amount.' These seem
perfectly analogous to<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>valuable-invaluable</i>.</div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">I'm sure there's more, but I
don't know if that prefix is cognate
with the negator found in, for
instance,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Un-freiheit</i> 'unfreedom.'
So, there are probably complications
involved if one were to analyze that
more seriously.</div>
<br>
Best,</div>
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<br>
</div>
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Tim<br>
<div style="">
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"
style="font-size:11pt"><b>Von:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> im Auftrag von ROBERT
Stephane via Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Freitag,
16. August 2024 11:48<br>
<b>An:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational
negation</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
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<div
style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">Dear Joe,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px"><br>
</div>
<div>Personally, I do not regard
these uses of lexical negation
as expletive but rather as
contributing a construction
with a high-degree value that
can be paraphrased as follows:
'this object is (valuable) to
a degree that I (speaker)
cannot (even) express', or '<span><b>no</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>matter how hard I try to estimate
how much X is P, I<b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>can't</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>express it'<span>(P for predicate)</span>.</span></div>
<div><br>
Note that in the examples I
can analyse (Germanic, English
and also French '<i>in-estim-able</i>'),
this lexical negation is
combined with a suffix (cf.
Germ. -<i>bar</i>, Eng. <
Fr. -<i>able</i>) which
contributes to the meaning of
the construction because it
expresses evaluation about
capacity ‘which can be P’ .<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best<br>
<br>
</div>
<font size="2">Stéphane ROBERT</font>
<div
style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px"><font size="2"><a
href="https://llacan.cnrs.fr/" class="OWAAutoLink moz-txt-link-freetext"
id="LPlnk617633"
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<div style="">
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg"
dir="ltr"><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif"
style="font-size:11pt"><b>De
:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
de la part de Hannu
Tommola via Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>vendredi 16 août 2024 11:03<br>
<b>À :</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG></a>;
Pun Ho Lui<br>
<b>Objet :</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive
derivational negation</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
Hi,</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
<br>
</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
there seems to be a
tendency to lexicalize
'invaluable' in an
intensifying non-negative
meaning (cf. Russian<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>bes-cennyj</i> 'invaluable,
priceless', which has an
obsolete meaning
'valueless' =<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>ne-cennyj</i>). This tendency
goes back to the verb
'value' that has, in
various languages, both
the meanings 1)
'estimate', 2)
'regard/estimate highly'.
Cf. also German<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>un-schätzbar</i> 'invaluable'
<<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>schätzen</i> 1. 'to regard
highly, respect', 2.
'value, estimate'; the
same applies to Swedish<i>o-skattbar</i> <<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>(upp)skatta</i>.</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
<br>
</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
Best wishes,</div>
<div class="elementToProof"
style="font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">
Hannu Tommola</div>
<hr tabindex="-1"
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg"
dir="ltr"><font
face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>Lähettäjä:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
käyttäjän Pun Ho Lui via
Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
puolesta<br>
<b>Lähetetty:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>perjantai 16. elokuuta 2024 3.22<br>
<b>Vastaanottaja:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG></a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Aihe:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational
negation</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div
style="line-break:after-white-space">Dear linguists,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am recently
interested in lexical
items that consist of a
derivational negative
affix which may not
contribute a negative
meaning (i.e. being
expletive). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For instance,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>in-valuable</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>~<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>valuable</i>. Other possible
examples would be 無價
‘invaluable [lit. NEG
value’ in Mandarin, and<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>sewashi-nai</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>‘restless’ ~<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>sewashii</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>‘busy’ in Japanese.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have looked into a
number of (decent)
grammar descriptions but
have no luck.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am wondering if you
know of any language
with similar items.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Warmest,</div>
<div>Pun Ho Lui Joe</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none; float:none; display:inline!important">_______________________________________________</span><br
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<span
style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none; float:none; display:inline!important"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none; float:none; display:inline!important"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span></div>
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<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
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