<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"MS Gothic";
panose-1:2 11 6 9 7 2 5 8 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Yu Gothic";
panose-1:2 11 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Aptos;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@Yu Gothic";
panose-1:2 11 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@MS Gothic";
panose-1:2 11 6 9 7 2 5 8 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Formateret HTML Tegn";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
span.apple-converted-space
{mso-style-name:apple-converted-space;}
span.FormateretHTMLTegn
{mso-style-name:"Formateret HTML Tegn";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Formateret HTML";
font-family:Consolas;}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ligatures:none;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:3.0cm 2.0cm 3.0cm 2.0cm;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang="DA" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I do not know if anybody has remarked on German
<i>Untiefe</i> which actually has two opposite meanings:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">1. a shallow part of a river or the sea, where the water is
<i>not</i> deep, hence a danger for ships that might get stuck<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">2. an unfathomably deep part of a river (rarely) or the sea<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">This is what the dictionaries say. For me,
<i>Untiefe</i> has mostly the first meaning, although some people might claim it is old-fashioned or even obsolete.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hartmut Haberland<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>På vegne af </b>Volker Gast via Lingtyp<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 18. august 2024 21:25<br>
<b>Til:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>There are some further interesting examples of the German un-prefix on nouns:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Un-mensch 'inhuman person'<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Un-person 'persona non grata'<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Un-ding 'something unheard of'<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Un-zahl 'huge number' (cf. Un-menge)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>I had a look at Grimm's Wörterbuch, where I found some further examples that I was unaware of, e.g. Un-haufe 'un-heap', Un-masse 'un-mass'. Some of these words seem to be relatively old (16th cent.), others quite recent (and Unperson may have been influenced
by G. Orwell's English coinage? It seems to have emerged in the middle of the 20th century in German, according to the DWDS).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>There's clearly an emotive component to all of these, and I think they all have a negative connotation. Some of the nouns seem to be formed on the model of the pattern<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>'Some x that you cannot V (measure, count)' (cf. Stephane's comment)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>"Un-mensch" is perhaps the example that's closest to literal negation, 'someone who is not a human being'. Unding is mostly used for abstract entities, in my German, and more or less means 'scandal'.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>I think I would see these examples as instances of subjectification and specialization, as others have written or implied. The core meaning of 'un-' still survives in the negative evaluation (cf. Bastian). Btw I think that 'Un-menge' also has a negative
evaluation. It's not just a large quantity -- it's a quantity that's TOO large, according to some standard.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Best,<br>
Volker<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am 16.08.2024 um 14:18 schrieb ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">I fully agree with Bastian which perhaps expresses more clearly what I meant by “high degree”: subjective evaluation pointing to an extreme degree (indescribable,
inexpressible), positive or negative depending on the notion involved. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">To take on this meaning, lexical negation must be combined with a gradable (or scalar) notion. In the case of nouns, this typically involves mass nouns, such as
Menge (crowd), Tiefe (depth) vs. Freiheit (freedom).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Stéphane<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div id="Signature">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">
<hr size="2" width="98%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> de la part de Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 16 août 2024 14:15<br>
<b>À :</b> Bastian Persohn<br>
<b>Cc :</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Well, the point is that these words contain what synchronically looks like a negator affix even though that affix does not negate the stem. So, they seem to qualify for the phenomenon the original
post was about. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">But I like the idea that the function has shifted as part of a subjectification (?) process. Does that happen with negators cross-linguistically?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Tim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
<hr size="2" width="98%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Von:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Bastian Persohn
<a href="mailto:persohn.linguistics@gmail.com"><persohn.linguistics@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag, 16. August 2024 13:55<br>
<b>An:</b> Zingler, Tim<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I’m not sure that <i>Untiefe</i> is synonymous with
<i>Tiefe</i>, or <i>Unmenge</i> with <i>Menge</i>. In my intuition <i>Un-menge</i> has an evaluative ring to it (‚an undesirably large or over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS translates it as ’sehr große, übergroße Menge’ [very big, unnecessary big amount]’. Similarly,
<i>Un-tiefe</i> usually refers to an extreme depth (cf. DWDS: ‚abgrundartige, sehr große Tiefe in einem Gewässer [abysm-like, very large depth in a body of water]‘.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Their closest relatives are probably found in instances like <i>Un-fall</i> ‚accident‘ <
<i>Fall</i> ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the undesirable case‘ or <i>Un-tier</i> ‚monster‘, lit ‚un-animal‘. What all these have in common is a negative element, albeit in the subjective rather than the material domain.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Bastian
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Am 16.08.2024 um 13:10 schrieb Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">German has <i>Un-tiefe</i>, which essentially means the same as<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Tiefe</i> 'depth'. Or<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Un-menge</i>,
largely synonymous with<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Menge</i> 'mass, crowd, great amount.' These seem perfectly analogous to<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>valuable-invaluable</i>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I'm sure there's more, but I don't know if that prefix is cognate with the negator found in, for instance,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Un-freiheit</i> 'unfreedom.'
So, there are probably complications involved if one were to analyze that more seriously.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Tim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
<hr size="2" width="1086" style="width:814.35pt" align="center">
</span></div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Von:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> im Auftrag von ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Freitag, 16. August 2024 11:48<br>
<b>An:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Joe,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Personally, I do not regard these uses of lexical negation as expletive but rather as contributing a construction with a high-degree value that can be paraphrased
as follows: 'this object is (valuable) to a degree that I (speaker) cannot (even) express', or '<b>no</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>matter how hard I try to estimate how much X is P, I<span class="apple-converted-space"><b> </b></span><b>can't</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>express
it'(P for predicate).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
Note that in the examples I can analyse (Germanic, English and also French '<i>in-estim-able</i>'), this lexical negation is combined with a suffix (cf. Germ. -<i>bar</i>, Eng. < Fr. -<i>able</i>) which contributes to the meaning of the construction because
it expresses evaluation about capacity ‘which can be P’ .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Best<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Stéphane ROBERT
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://llacan.cnrs.fr/">https://llacan.cnrs.fr</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="Signature">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">
<hr size="2" width="1086" style="width:814.35pt" align="center">
</span></div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">De :</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> de la part de Hannu Tommola via Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>vendredi 16 août 2024 11:03<br>
<b>À :</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG></a>; Pun Ho Lui<br>
<b>Objet :</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">there seems to be a tendency to lexicalize 'invaluable' in an intensifying non-negative meaning (cf. Russian<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>bes-cennyj</i> 'invaluable, priceless', which has an obsolete
meaning 'valueless' =<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>ne-cennyj</i>). This tendency goes back to the verb 'value' that has, in various languages, both the meanings 1) 'estimate', 2) 'regard/estimate highly'. Cf. also German<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>un-schätzbar</i> 'invaluable'
<<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>schätzen</i> 1. 'to regard highly, respect', 2. 'value, estimate'; the same applies to Swedish<i>o-skattbar</i> <<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>(upp)skatta</i>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hannu Tommola<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">
<hr size="2" width="1086" style="width:814.35pt" align="center">
</span></div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Lähettäjä:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> käyttäjän Pun Ho Lui via Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> puolesta<br>
<b>Lähetetty:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>perjantai 16. elokuuta 2024 3.22<br>
<b>Vastaanottaja:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG></a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Aihe:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Dear linguists,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">I am recently interested in lexical items that consist of a derivational negative affix which may not contribute a negative meaning (i.e. being expletive). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">For instance,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>in-valuable</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>~<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>valuable</i>.
Other possible examples would be </span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">無價</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> ‘invaluable [lit. NEG value’ in Mandarin, and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>sewashi-nai</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>‘restless’
~<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>sewashii</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>‘busy’ in Japanese.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">I have looked into a number of (decent) grammar descriptions but have no luck.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">I am wondering if you know of any language with similar items.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Warmest,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Pun Ho Lui Joe<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lingtyp mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>