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<p>Analogy to "irrespective" is probably an etymological factor in
that one, but I would assume that expletive reading is why the
school grammarian argument against it - that it's a double
negative and thus shouldn't have a negative reading in the end -
doesn't hold in practice and people don't actually have problems
parsing the intended meaning there.</p>
<p>Best,<br>
Jeremy<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/08/2024 18:07, Peter Arkadiev
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:494811724083585@mail.yandex.ru">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>What about the (in)famous "irregardless" then?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Peter</div>
<div> </div>
<div>19.08.2024, 17:04, "Jeremy Bradley via Lingtyp"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Mari (Uralic) has an interesting pair of adjectives using the
fully productive privative derivational suffix <em>-dəme</em>
'-less' here:</p>
<p><em>mučas-dəme</em><br>
end-PRIV<br>
'endless'</p>
<p><em>ńi-mučas-dəme</em><br>
NEG-end-PRIV<br>
'endless'</p>
<p>... with <em>ńi</em>- being a prefix most likely borrowed
from Russian used to create negative indefinites (<em>molan </em>'why'
> <em>ńimonal </em>'for no reason') and otherwise only
attaching to pronominal stems.</p>
<p>Best,<br>
Jeremy</p>
<p> </p>
<div>On 18/08/2024 22:11, Hartmut Haberland via Lingtyp wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US">I
do not know if anybody has remarked on German <em>Untiefe</em>
which actually has two opposite meanings:</span></p>
<p
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US">1.
a shallow part of a river or the sea, where the water is
<em>not</em> deep, hence a danger for ships that might
get stuck</span></p>
<p
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US">2.
an unfathomably deep part of a river (rarely) or the sea</span></p>
<p
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US">This
is what the dictionaries say. For me, <em>Untiefe</em>
has mostly the first meaning, although some people might
claim it is old-fashioned or even obsolete.</span></p>
<p
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US">Hartmut
Haberland</span></p>
<p
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style:solid none none none;border-top-color:#e1e1e1;border-width:1pt medium medium medium;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><strong><span
style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Fra:</span></strong><span
style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> Lingtyp <a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
<strong>På vegne af </strong>Volker Gast via
Lingtyp<br>
<strong>Sendt:</strong> 18. august 2024 21:25<br>
<strong>Til:</strong> <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<strong>Emne:</strong> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive
derivational negation</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"> </p>
<p>There are some further interesting examples of the German
un-prefix on nouns:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Un-mensch 'inhuman person'</p>
<p>Un-person 'persona non grata'</p>
<p>Un-ding 'something unheard of'</p>
<p>Un-zahl 'huge number' (cf. Un-menge)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I had a look at Grimm's Wörterbuch, where I found some
further examples that I was unaware of, e.g. Un-haufe
'un-heap', Un-masse 'un-mass'. Some of these words seem to
be relatively old (16th cent.), others quite recent (and
Unperson may have been influenced by G. Orwell's English
coinage? It seems to have emerged in the middle of the
20th century in German, according to the DWDS).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There's clearly an emotive component to all of these, and
I think they all have a negative connotation. Some of the
nouns seem to be formed on the model of the pattern</p>
<p> </p>
<p>'Some x that you cannot V (measure, count)' (cf.
Stephane's comment)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"Un-mensch" is perhaps the example that's closest to
literal negation, 'someone who is not a human being'.
Unding is mostly used for abstract entities, in my German,
and more or less means 'scandal'.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think I would see these examples as instances of
subjectification and specialization, as others have
written or implied. The core meaning of 'un-' still
survives in the negative evaluation (cf. Bastian). Btw I
think that 'Un-menge' also has a negative evaluation. It's
not just a large quantity -- it's a quantity that's TOO
large, according to some standard.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Best,<br>
Volker</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm">Am
16.08.2024 um 14:18 schrieb ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-bottom:5pt;margin-top:5pt">
<div
id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<p class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I
fully agree with Bastian which perhaps expresses
more clearly what I meant by “high degree”:
subjective evaluation pointing to an extreme
degree (indescribable, inexpressible), positive or
negative depending on the notion involved. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">To
take on this meaning, lexical negation must be
combined with a gradable (or scalar) notion. In
the case of nouns, this typically involves mass
nouns, such as Menge (crowd), Tiefe (depth) vs.
Freiheit (freedom).</span></p>
</div>
<p><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Stéphane</span></p>
<p><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
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style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'tahoma' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
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<div>
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style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm;text-align:center"
align="center"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<hr width="98%" size="2" align="center"> </span></div>
<div
id="f2e387f28ef856c18dfa722bbcbb9bfadivRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><b><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">De
:</span></b><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">
Lingtyp <a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
de la part de Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 16 août 2024 14:15<br>
<b>À :</b> Bastian Persohn<br>
<b>Cc :</b> <a
class="56221ecd4cd88a7e220fd42e552d23b7moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive
derivational negation</span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div
id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Well, the point
is that these words contain what
synchronically looks like a negator affix
even though that affix does not negate the
stem. So, they seem to qualify for the
phenomenon the original post was about. </span></p>
<p><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">But I like the
idea that the function has shifted as part
of a subjectification (?) process. Does that
happen with negators cross-linguistically?</span></p>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"><br>
Best,</span></p>
</div>
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id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
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id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Tim</span></p>
<div>
<div
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm;text-align:center"
align="center"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">
<hr width="98%" size="2" align="center"> </span></div>
<div
id="f2e387f28ef856c18dfa722bbcbb9bfadivRplyFwdMsg">
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><b><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Von:</span></b><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">
Bastian Persohn <a
href="mailto:persohn.linguistics@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><persohn.linguistics@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag, 16. August
2024 13:55<br>
<b>An:</b> Zingler, Tim<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
class="56221ecd4cd88a7e220fd42e552d23b7moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive
derivational negation</span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">I’m not sure
that <i>Untiefe</i> is synonymous with <i>Tiefe</i>,
or <i>Unmenge</i> with <i>Menge</i>.
In my intuition <i>Un-menge</i> has an
evaluative ring to it (‚an undesirably
large or over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS
translates it as ’sehr große, übergroße
Menge’ [very big, unnecessary big
amount]’. Similarly, <i>Un-tiefe</i> usually
refers to an extreme depth (cf. DWDS:
‚abgrundartige, sehr große Tiefe in
einem Gewässer [abysm-like, very large
depth in a body of water]‘. </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Their closest
relatives are probably found in
instances like <i>Un-fall</i> ‚accident‘
< <i>Fall</i> ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the
undesirable case‘ or <i>Un-tier</i> ‚monster‘,
lit ‚un-animal‘. What all these have
in common is a negative element,
albeit in the subjective rather than
the material domain.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Best,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Bastian </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-bottom:5pt;margin-top:5pt">
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Am 16.08.2024 um
13:10 schrieb Zingler, Tim via
Lingtyp <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>:</span></p>
</div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div
id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">German has <i>Un-tiefe</i>,
which essentially means
the same as<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>Tiefe</i> 'depth'.
Or<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>Un-menge</i>,
largely synonymous with<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>Menge</i> 'mass,
crowd, great amount.'
These seem perfectly
analogous to<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>valuable-invaluable</i>.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">I'm sure there's
more, but I don't know
if that prefix is
cognate with the negator
found in, for instance,<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>Un-freiheit</i> 'unfreedom.'
So, there are probably
complications involved
if one were to analyze
that more seriously.</span></p>
</div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"><br>
Best,</span></p>
</div>
<div
id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div
id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">Tim</span></p>
<div>
<div
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm;text-align:center"
align="center"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif">
<hr
style="width:814.35pt"
width="1086" size="2"
align="center"> </span></div>
<div
id="f2e387f28ef856c18dfa722bbcbb9bfadivRplyFwdMsg">
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><b><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Von:</span></b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Lingtyp
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
im Auftrag von ROBERT
Stephane via Lingtyp <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>Freitag,
16. August 2024 11:48<br>
<b>An:</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><a
class="56221ecd4cd88a7e220fd42e552d23b7moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Lingtyp] Expletive
derivational negation</span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Dear
Joe,<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Personally,
I do not regard
these uses of
lexical negation
as expletive but
rather as
contributing a
construction with
a high-degree
value that can be
paraphrased as
follows: 'this
object is
(valuable) to a
degree that I
(speaker) cannot
(even) express',
or '<b>no</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>matter
how hard I try to
estimate how much
X is P, I<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"><b> </b></span><b>can't</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>express
it'(P for
predicate).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><br>
Note that in the
examples I can
analyse (Germanic,
English and also
French '<i>in-estim-able</i>'),
this lexical
negation is
combined with a
suffix (cf. Germ.
-<i>bar</i>, Eng.
< Fr. -<i>able</i>)
which contributes
to the meaning of
the construction
because it
expresses
evaluation about
capacity ‘which
can be P’ .</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm 0cm 12pt 0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Best</span></p>
</div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Stéphane
ROBERT </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><a
class="56221ecd4cd88a7e220fd42e552d23b7moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://llacan.cnrs.fr/" moz-do-not-send="true">https://llacan.cnrs.fr</a></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="6f66c2f747c887cfc273dd1edc8cca88Signature">
<div
id="e566dda085c6d9c14dfba6a8e1f57923divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'tahoma' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm;text-align:center"
align="center"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<hr
style="width:814.35pt" width="1086" size="2" align="center"> </span></div>
<div
id="f2e387f28ef856c18dfa722bbcbb9bfadivRplyFwdMsg">
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><b><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">De
:</span></b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Lingtyp
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
de la part de
Hannu Tommola
via Lingtyp <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>vendredi
16 août 2024
11:03<br>
<b>À :</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" moz-do-not-send="true"><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG></a>;
Pun Ho Lui<br>
<b>Objet :</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Lingtyp]
Expletive
derivational
negation</span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black">Hi,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black">there seems to be a tendency to lexicalize
'invaluable'
in an
intensifying
non-negative
meaning (cf.
Russian<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>bes-cennyj</i> 'invaluable,
priceless',
which has an
obsolete
meaning
'valueless' =<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>ne-cennyj</i>).
This tendency
goes back to
the verb
'value' that
has, in
various
languages,
both the
meanings 1)
'estimate', 2)
'regard/estimate highly'. Cf. also German<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>un-schätzbar</i> 'invaluable'
<<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>schätzen</i> 1.
'to regard
highly,
respect', 2.
'value,
estimate'; the
same applies
to Swedish<i>o-skattbar</i> <<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>(upp)skatta</i>.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black">Best wishes,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black">Hannu Tommola</span></p>
</div>
<div
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm;text-align:center"
align="center"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<hr
style="width:814.35pt" width="1086" size="2" align="center"> </span></div>
<div
id="f2e387f28ef856c18dfa722bbcbb9bfadivRplyFwdMsg">
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><b><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Lähettäjä:</span></b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> </span></span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Lingtyp
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
käyttäjän Pun
Ho Lui via
Lingtyp <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
puolesta<br>
<b>Lähetetty:</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>perjantai
16. elokuuta
2024 3.22<br>
<b>Vastaanottaja:</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" moz-do-not-send="true"><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG></a>
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Aihe:</b><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>[Lingtyp]
Expletive
derivational
negation</span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Dear
linguists, </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I
am recently
interested in
lexical items
that consist
of a
derivational
negative affix
which may not
contribute a
negative
meaning (i.e.
being
expletive). </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">For
instance,<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>in-valuable</i><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>~<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>valuable</i>.
Other possible
examples would
be </span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'ms gothic';font-size:10pt" lang="JA">無價</span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
‘invaluable
[lit. NEG
value’ in
Mandarin, and<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>sewashi-nai</i><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>‘restless’
~<span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span><i>sewashii</i><span
class="3670b148840d486b2ad4e9294285bf9bapple-converted-space"> </span>‘busy’
in Japanese.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I
have looked
into a number
of (decent)
grammar
descriptions
but have no
luck.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I
am wondering
if you know of
any language
with similar
items.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Thank
you.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Warmest,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'verdana' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Pun
Ho Lui Joe</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'helvetica' , sans-serif;font-size:9pt">_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a
class="56221ecd4cd88a7e220fd42e552d23b7moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
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class="56221ecd4cd88a7e220fd42e552d23b7moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p
class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><span
style="color:black;font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="bd6ff683d8d0a42f228bf8a64b8551e1MsoNormal"
style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt;margin:0cm"><br>
<br>
</p>
<pre
style="font-family:'courier new';font-size:10pt;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 0cm">_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre
style="font-family:'courier new';font-size:10pt;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 0cm">Lingtyp mailing list</pre>
<pre
style="font-family:'courier new';font-size:10pt;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 0cm"><a
class="56221ecd4cd88a7e220fd42e552d23b7moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></pre>
<pre
style="font-family:'courier new';font-size:10pt;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 0cm"><a
class="56221ecd4cd88a7e220fd42e552d23b7moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<pre
style="font-family:'courier new';font-size:10pt;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 0cm">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a
href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre
style="font-family:'courier new';font-size:10pt;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 0cm">--
Jeremy Bradley, Ph.D.
University of Vienna
<a href="http://www.mari-language.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.mari-language.com</a>
<a href="mailto:jeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at</a>
Office address:
Institut EVSL
Abteilung Finno-Ugristik
Universität Wien
Campus AAKH, Hof 7-2
Spitalgasse 2-4
1090 Wien
AUSTRIA
Mobile: +43-664-99-31-788
Skype: jeremy.moss.bradley</pre>
,
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<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>-- </div>
<div>Peter Arkadiev, PhD Habil.</div>
<div><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://peterarkadiev.github.io/">https://peterarkadiev.github.io/</a></div>
<div> </div>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Jeremy Bradley, Ph.D.
University of Vienna
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mari-language.com">http://www.mari-language.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at">jeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at</a>
Office address:
Institut EVSL
Abteilung Finno-Ugristik
Universität Wien
Campus AAKH, Hof 7-2
Spitalgasse 2-4
1090 Wien
AUSTRIA
Mobile: +43-664-99-31-788
Skype: jeremy.moss.bradley</pre>
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