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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Thanks, Michael! Great examples! Indeed, I kinda figured that the constraint against that word order would be of a more categorical nature in Spanish (and other Romance languages) than in Russian. –
Best – Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
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</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span style="color:black">Michael Daniel <misha.daniel@gmail.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, August 31, 2024 at 11:55<br>
<b>To: </b>Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77@buffalo.edu><br>
<b>Cc: </b>LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Optional determination?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Dear Juergen, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">this does not relate to the essence of your question, but let me indicate, at the empirical level, that your grammaticality judgment seems too strong in the case of Russian. Consider the following excerpt from a
poem by Federico Garcia Lorca, in the best known translation by Anatolij Geleskul:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Так дай хотя бы подняться к <b>высоким этим перилам</b>!
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О дайте, дайте подняться к <b>зеленым этим перилам</b>.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">(Note that in the original, the inverse order is indeed impossible <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#3A3A3A">–Dejadme subir al menos<br>
hasta las altas barandas,<br>
¡dejadme subir!, dejadme<br>
hasta las verdes barandas.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">- but should I now step carefully about my own judgements<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#3A3A3A">)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#3A3A3A">Michael</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">--<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Михаил Даниэль<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><i>Я осуждаю агрессию моей страны против Украины.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Michael Daniel<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><i>I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">сб, 31 авг. 2024<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>г. в 03:14, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear all — I’m wondering to what extent it makes sense to talk about determiners and determination as a grammatical process in languages in which the would-be determiners are syntactically optional. In other words, is there
such a thing as optional determination?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Consider for example Russian:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m7693901634740493376msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:109.5pt"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">(1)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
</span><span lang="RU" style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Я прочитал эту зеленую книгу</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m7693901634740493376msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:109.5pt"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">‘I read this green book’</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m7693901634740493376msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:109.5pt"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">(2)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
</span><span lang="RU" style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Я прочитал зеленую книгу</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m7693901634740493376msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:109.5pt"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">‘I read a/the green book</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m7693901634740493376msolistparagraph" style="margin-left:109.5pt"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">(3)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
</span><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">*</span><span lang="RU" style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Я прочитал зеленую эту книгу</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Argument positions can be filled by non-maximal projections* as in (2), unlike in Germanic and Romance, so that can’t be a basis for talking about determination in Russian. But what about (3)? Despite Russian having fairly
free word order, the order in (3) seems all but ungrammatical. But is it parsimonious to invoke determination to account for this ordering constraint? Has anybody looked into this, in Russian or any other language without obligatory determination, or found
any other kind of (strictly empirical) evidence of a categorical difference between maximal and non-maximal nominal projections in such languages?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">(*I’m looking at this in theory-neutral terms, so I’m disregarding here the DP analysis.)
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Thanks! – Juergen</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" target="_blank" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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