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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Oh, if that is the point, then the
answer is quite different:<br>
<br>
In many languages, a syntagma consisting of a common noun and a
syntagma consisting of a common noun modified by an adjective
attribute belong to the same category, viz. 'nominal', which is a
category that can be modified by an adjectival attribute.<br>
In most languages, a nominal and a nominal determined by a
determiner are different categories because the former, but not
the latter can be determined by a determiner.<br>
<br>
I hope this fits your point better.<br>
Christian<br>
------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Am 31.08.24 um 16:12 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear Christian –
No, I don’t share the presupposition you mention at all.
Rather, there is a specific role of obligatoriness vs.
optionality in the particular case of determination: if
determination is optional, then it is presumably the case
that both determined (i.e., maximal) and non-determined
(i.e., non-maximal) noun phrases can express arguments. My
question is whether there is then any other known reason to
still treat them as belonging to distinct syntactic
categories. I hope this makes sense? – Best – Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen
Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="color:black">Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf of Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, August 31, 2024 at 03:57<br>
<b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Optional
determination?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Dear Jürgen,<br>
<br>
before considering your specific question, let me ask
about its presupposition: If a process is optional, it
seems doubtful to you whether it can be considered a
grammatical process.<br>
<br>
Now if something is (structurally) obligatory, it is
grammatical. The inverse does not hold, because although
obligatoriness has been regarded by some as the most
important feature of grammaticalization, it is not the
only one. Moreover, there are degrees of
optionality/obligatoriness (s. Lehmann, <i>Thoughts on
grammaticalization</i>).<br>
<br>
Thus, the grammatical rules concerning determination may
say that determiners are optional in certain contexts,
but obligatory in others; that if there is a determiner,
it has to go in such and such a syntagmatic position;
that determiners are chosen from a small closed paradigm
and cannot be combined syntagmatically; etc. Compare,
e.g., adjectives, for which there are such rules, too;
but they are less strict.<br>
<br>
During the documented history from Vulgar Latin to the
modern Romance languages, articles have been developping
from absent to increasingly obligatory. At which point
has determination by articles become "a grammatical
process"?<br>
<br>
Best, Christian<o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
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