<div dir="ltr">Dear Juergen, <div><br></div><div>this does not relate to the essence of your question, but let me indicate, at the empirical level, that your grammaticality judgment seems too strong in the case of Russian. Consider the following excerpt from a poem by Federico Garcia Lorca, in the best known translation by Anatolij Geleskul:</div><div><br></div>Так дай хотя бы подняться к <b>высоким этим перилам</b>! <br>О дайте, дайте подняться к <b>зеленым этим перилам</b>.<div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>(Note that in the original, the inverse order is indeed impossible </div><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px">–Dejadme subir al menos</span><br style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px">hasta las altas barandas,</span><br style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px">¡dejadme subir!, dejadme</span><br style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px">hasta las verdes barandas.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div>- but should I now step carefully about my own judgements<span style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px">)</span><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(58,58,58);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ubuntu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",sans-serif;font-size:14px">Michael</span></div><div><br></div><div>--</div><div>Михаил Даниэль</div><div><i>Я осуждаю агрессию моей страны против Украины.</i></div><div>Michael Daniel</div><div><i>I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.</i></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">сб, 31 авг. 2024 г. в 03:14, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-4657172187279060342">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear all — I’m wondering to what extent it makes sense to talk about determiners and determination as a grammatical process in languages in which the would-be determiners are syntactically
optional. In other words, is there such a thing as optional determination?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Consider for example Russian:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_7693901634740493376MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:73.5pt">
<u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><span>(1)<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang="RU" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Я прочитал эту зеленую книгу</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_7693901634740493376MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:73.5pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">‘I read this green book’<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_7693901634740493376MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:73.5pt">
<u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><span>(2)<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang="RU" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Я прочитал зеленую книгу</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_7693901634740493376MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:73.5pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">‘I read a/the green book<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_7693901634740493376MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:73.5pt">
<u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><span>(3)<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">*</span><span lang="RU" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Я прочитал зеленую эту книгу</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Argument positions can be filled by non-maximal projections* as in (2), unlike in Germanic and Romance, so that can’t be a basis for talking about determination in Russian. But what
about (3)? Despite Russian having fairly free word order, the order in (3) seems all but ungrammatical. But is it parsimonious to invoke determination to account for this ordering constraint? Has anybody looked into this, in Russian or any other language without
obligatory determination, or found any other kind of (strictly empirical) evidence of a categorical difference between maximal and non-maximal nominal projections in such languages?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">(*I’m looking at this in theory-neutral terms, so I’m disregarding here the DP analysis.)
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Thanks! – Juergen<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:rgb(0,120,212)">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:rgb(5,99,193)">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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