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<p>It seems to me that "determiner" in Bloomfield's (1933) sense
(where it basically referred to articles and demonstratives) and
"determination" in the sense of semantics are two rather different
things.</p>
<p>Many semanticists seem to think that one needs a syntactic
determiner to turn a nominal expression into a referential
expression, but of course, many languages lack both definite and
indefinite articles (Grambank has 1268 languages of this type:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://grambank.clld.org/combinations/GB020_GB021">https://grambank.clld.org/combinations/GB020_GB021</a>).</p>
<p>Like many other types of grammatical markers, articles are often
optional. So I don't really see a basis for distinguishing between
"maximal projection" and "non-maximal projection" in general
terms. (And the idea that there is a single determiner slot seems
to be based on English alone; even languages such as Greek and
Spanish allow the cooccurrence of demonstratives and articles.)</p>
<p>Finally, the term "determination" has also been used in a more
general sense, for all nominal modifiers, as in Trubetzkoy's <span>"Le
rapport entre le determiné, le determinant et le defini" (1939).
All this makes it difficult to talk about these phenomena in
such a way that we immediately understand what is meant.</span></p>
<p><span>Best,</span></p>
<p><span>Martin<br>
</span></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31.08.24 19:57, Juergen Bohnemeyer
via Lingtyp wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Thanks again,
Christian. So I take your answer to be that optional
determination is (i) a thing (i.e., it exists) and (ii) does
indeed involve a categorical difference between determined
and undetermined phrases, on account of the latter, but not
the former, being compatible with determiners. This makes
sense to me.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">But of course,
even languages with obligatory determination distinguish
between weak and strong determiners, where only the latter
strictly exclude other determiners. So it remains to be seen
what kinds of determiners are strictly incompatible with
other determiners in languages with optional determination.
Maybe Zygmunt’s book has the answer to that question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Best – Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen
Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
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href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
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Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"" lang="DE"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"" lang="DE"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="color:black">Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf of Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, August 31, 2024 at 11:31<br>
<b>To: </b>LINGTYP LINGTYP
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Optional
determination?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Oh, if
that is the point, then the answer is quite different:<br>
<br>
In many languages, a syntagma consisting of a common
noun and a syntagma consisting of a common noun
modified by an adjective attribute belong to the same
category, viz. 'nominal', which is a category that can
be modified by an adjectival attribute.<br>
In most languages, a nominal and a nominal determined
by a determiner are different categories because the
former, but not the latter can be determined by a
determiner.<br>
<br>
I hope this fits your point better.<br>
Christian<br>
------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Am 31.08.24 um 16:12 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear
Christian – No, I don’t share the presupposition
you mention at all. Rather, there is a specific
role of obligatoriness vs. optionality in the
particular case of determination: if determination
is optional, then it is presumably the case that
both determined (i.e., maximal) and non-determined
(i.e., non-maximal) noun phrases can express
arguments. My question is whether there is then
any other known reason to still treat them as
belonging to distinct syntactic categories. I hope
this makes sense? – Best – Juergen</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen
Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY
14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"
title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Office
hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via
Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode
Hoorheh) </span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The
Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""
lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""
lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="color:black">Lingtyp <a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of
Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, August 31, 2024 at
03:57<br>
<b>To: </b><a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Optional
determination?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">Dear
Jürgen,<br>
<br>
before considering your specific question, let
me ask about its presupposition: If a process
is optional, it seems doubtful to you whether
it can be considered a grammatical process.<br>
<br>
Now if something is (structurally) obligatory,
it is grammatical. The inverse does not hold,
because although obligatoriness has been
regarded by some as the most important feature
of grammaticalization, it is not the only one.
Moreover, there are degrees of
optionality/obligatoriness (s. Lehmann, <i>Thoughts
on grammaticalization</i>).<br>
<br>
Thus, the grammatical rules concerning
determination may say that determiners are
optional in certain contexts, but obligatory
in others; that if there is a determiner, it
has to go in such and such a syntagmatic
position; that determiners are chosen from a
small closed paradigm and cannot be combined
syntagmatically; etc. Compare, e.g.,
adjectives, for which there are such rules,
too; but they are less strict.<br>
<br>
During the documented history from Vulgar
Latin to the modern Romance languages,
articles have been developping from absent to
increasingly obligatory. At which point has
determination by articles become "a
grammatical process"?<br>
<br>
Best, Christian<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Prof. em. Dr. Christian
Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
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Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
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