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<p>I certainly didn't want to "argue that determination is
uninteresting and not worthy of attention" – all I said was that
we don't know how to identify it cross-linguistically. Of course
these phenomena are on our agenda!<br>
</p>
<p>The "finiteness/determination" parallels are indeed intriguing,
and it is understandable that generative grammarians have often
tried to systematize them, e.g. by drawing parallels between DP
and TP, between KP and CP, and so on. (Parallels have also been
noted in other traditions, of course, e.g. in Functional Grammar
by Rijkhoff.)<br>
</p>
<p>But it's also well-known that "finiteness" is not identifiable
across languages using uniform criteria (see e.g. Cristofaro 2007;
Nikolaeva 2010), and this experience may be reason to be cautious
when it comes to "determination".</p>
<p>Now what about "weak determiners" and "strong determiners"? I
wasn't very familiar with this distinction, but I found the
following in a 2014 lecture handout by Barbara Partee (<br>
<a
href="https://people.umass.edu/partee/HSE_Web_14/materials/HSE144.pdf"
class="x1fey0fg xmper1u x1edh9d7"><span
style="white-space: pre-wrap;">https://people.umass.edu/partee/HSE_Web_14/materials/HSE144.pdf</span></a>):<br>
</p>
<p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Weak determiners: Determiners that can occur "normally" in existential sentences </span><span
style="white-space: pre-wrap;">(Milsark 1977): <i>a, some, one, two, three, …, at most/at least/exactly/more than/nearly/only one,</i></span><i><span
style="white-space: pre-wrap;"> two, three, …, many, how many, a few, several, no </span></i></p>
<p><span style="white-space: pre-wrap;">Strong determiners: Determiners </span><span
style="white-space: pre-wrap;">which cannot "normally" occur in existential sentences:</span><span
style="white-space: pre-wrap;"> <i>every, each, the, all, most, both, neither, which of the two, all but two</i></span></p>
<p>These lists of forms, as well as the criterion (occurrence in
Existential Clauses) are English-specific, so it's unclear how
these notions could form the basis of a general approach to
"determination". Outside of formal semantics, forms meaning 'many'
or 'all' are generally regarded as quantifiers, not as
determiners.</p>
<p>Jürgen Bohnemeyer also mentions "clitic possessive pronouns", but
these are not generally treated as determiners either (except in
English, the Bloomfieldian tradition).</p>
<p>So it seems that we need more terminological clarity in order to
avoid talking past each other.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Martin<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01.09.24 16:18, Juergen Bohnemeyer
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear all – As I
said before, languages vary in where they draw the line
between weak and strong determiners. Weak ones are those
that combine with other determiners, including strong
determiners, whereas strong determiners combine only with
weak ones. For example, Italian and Yucatec treat clitic
possessive pronouns as weak determiners, whereas possessive
pronouns are strong in most Germanic and Romance languages
afaik.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Martin seems to
claim that in most languages (in fact, he seems to imply
that it may be all languages save English), there is no
distinction between weak and strong determiners, i.e., all
determiners are weak. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">And here I am, not
being aware of even a single example of such a language.
Please release me from my ignorance, those who have the
facts, whatever they may be.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Lastly, Martin
seems to want to argue that determination is uninteresting
as a phenomenon and not worthy of the attention of
typologists. Apologies if I’m overstating. But, fwiw., it
seems to me that such questions of interest are matters of
personal taste and it isn’t obvious to me what their role in
scientific discourse should be.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">To me, the
parallels between determination in the nominal domain and
finiteness in the verbal domain have long been intriguing.
In both cases, some languages have grammaticalized a rather
robust contrast, others a more porose one, and yet others
none at all. As long as we have no explanation for why this
is, nor even a precise mapping of the relevant
distributions, it seems to me that these phenomena are by
necessity on the typological agenda, whether some of us like
it or not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Best – Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen
Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="color:black">Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, September 1, 2024 at 01:35<br>
<b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Optional
determination?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">It seems to me that
"determiner" in Bloomfield's (1933) sense (where it
basically referred to articles and demonstratives) and
"determination" in the sense of semantics are two rather
different things.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">Many semanticists seem to
think that one needs a syntactic determiner to turn a
nominal expression into a referential expression, but of
course, many languages lack both definite and indefinite
articles (Grambank has 1268 languages of this type: <a
href="https://grambank.clld.org/combinations/GB020_GB021"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://grambank.clld.org/combinations/GB020_GB021</a>).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">Like many other types of
grammatical markers, articles are often optional. So I
don't really see a basis for distinguishing between
"maximal projection" and "non-maximal projection" in
general terms. (And the idea that there is a single
determiner slot seems to be based on English alone; even
languages such as Greek and Spanish allow the
cooccurrence of demonstratives and articles.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">Finally, the term
"determination" has also been used in a more general
sense, for all nominal modifiers, as in Trubetzkoy's "Le
rapport entre le determiné, le determinant et le defini"
(1939). All this makes it difficult to talk about these
phenomena in such a way that we immediately understand
what is meant.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">Martin<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On
31.08.24 19:57, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Thanks
again, Christian. So I take your answer to be that
optional determination is (i) a thing (i.e., it
exists) and (ii) does indeed involve a categorical
difference between determined and undetermined
phrases, on account of the latter, but not the
former, being compatible with determiners. This
makes sense to me.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">But of
course, even languages with obligatory
determination distinguish between weak and strong
determiners, where only the latter strictly
exclude other determiners. So it remains to be
seen what kinds of determiners are strictly
incompatible with other determiners in languages
with optional determination. Maybe Zygmunt’s book
has the answer to that question.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Best –
Juergen</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen
Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY
14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
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Web: </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"
title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span
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There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The
Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""
lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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style="font-family:"CMU Serif""
lang="DE"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="color:black">Lingtyp <a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of
Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp
<a
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" moz-do-not-send="true"><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, August 31, 2024 at
11:31<br>
<b>To: </b>LINGTYP LINGTYP <a
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" moz-do-not-send="true"><LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Optional
determination?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">Oh,
if that is the point, then the answer is
quite different:<br>
<br>
In many languages, a syntagma consisting of
a common noun and a syntagma consisting of a
common noun modified by an adjective
attribute belong to the same category, viz.
'nominal', which is a category that can be
modified by an adjectival attribute.<br>
In most languages, a nominal and a nominal
determined by a determiner are different
categories because the former, but not the
latter can be determined by a determiner.<br>
<br>
I hope this fits your point better.<br>
Christian<br>
------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Am 31.08.24 um 16:12 schrieb Juergen
Bohnemeyer:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear Christian – No, I don’t
share the presupposition you mention at
all. Rather, there is a specific role of
obligatoriness vs. optionality in the
particular case of determination: if
determination is optional, then it is
presumably the case that both determined
(i.e., maximal) and non-determined
(i.e., non-maximal) noun phrases can
express arguments. My question is
whether there is then any other known
reason to still treat them as belonging
to distinct syntactic categories. I hope
this makes sense? – Best – Juergen</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen
Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North
Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall,
Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"
title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
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style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
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or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520
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There’s A Crack In Everything -
That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span
style="color:black">Lingtyp <a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of
Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, August
31, 2024 at 03:57<br>
<b>To: </b><a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp]
Optional determination?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.5in">Dear
Jürgen,<br>
<br>
before considering your specific
question, let me ask about its
presupposition: If a process is
optional, it seems doubtful to you
whether it can be considered a
grammatical process.<br>
<br>
Now if something is (structurally)
obligatory, it is grammatical. The
inverse does not hold, because
although obligatoriness has been
regarded by some as the most
important feature of
grammaticalization, it is not the
only one. Moreover, there are
degrees of
optionality/obligatoriness (s.
Lehmann, <i>Thoughts on
grammaticalization</i>).<br>
<br>
Thus, the grammatical rules
concerning determination may say
that determiners are optional in
certain contexts, but obligatory in
others; that if there is a
determiner, it has to go in such and
such a syntagmatic position; that
determiners are chosen from a small
closed paradigm and cannot be
combined syntagmatically; etc.
Compare, e.g., adjectives, for which
there are such rules, too; but they
are less strict.<br>
<br>
During the documented history from
Vulgar Latin to the modern Romance
languages, articles have been
developping from absent to
increasingly obligatory. At which
point has determination by articles
become "a grammatical process"?<br>
<br>
Best, Christian<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">--
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Prof. em. Dr.
Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Lingtyp mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre style="margin-left:.5in">-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><a
href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></pre>
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