<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">In English we have a grammatical usage that seems to be the
flip side of a “deceased referent marker.” Perhaps it can be called “a living
individual referent marker.” As Jim McCawley pointed out about fifty years,
with regard to uses of the English Present Perfect, one cannot say “Albert
Einstein has lived in Princeton” because Einstein is dead. This is due to the restriction
of the Pres Perf “to indicate that a state of affairs prevailed throughout some
interval stretching from the past into the present.” <span></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2"><span> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">This usage seems to be evident to English-speaking children.
When my son was eight I asked him if you could say, “Abraham Lincoln has lived
in the White House.” He immediately said “no.” I asked him why not and he
answered: “Abraham Lincoln is dead.” We had never discussed this usage and I
was surprised that he was aware of it. <span></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2"><span> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">In 2017 Trump made a stir by saying: “Frederick Douglass is
an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more
and more, I notice.” Douglass, the great 19<sup>th</sup> century
African-American, died in 1895. The press interpreted Trump’s use of the
Present Perfect to indicate his lack of knowledge of history. It was assumed that
English speakers are aware of the unstated restriction on the use of the
tense/aspect form for living referents. <span></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2"><span> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">The restriction also applies to individual non-humans. For example,
I can’t say: “My dog died last year. He *has roamed this neighborhood every
day.”</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">For both types of referent markers, deceased and living, one must pay grammatical attention to whether the referent is alive.<br></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2"><br></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">Dan Slobin</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Linguistics</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">University of California, Berkeley<br></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><span></span></p>
</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 26, 2024 at 11:15 AM 양재영 via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Michael Daniel,<div><br></div><div>Unfortunately I am no expert in the language family, but upon your request I discovered some more mentions of this phenomenon in Hill & Hill (2019), where the suffixes ‑chui7v in Serrano, -ivy in Kitanemuk, and -k in Mountain Cahuilla (here labeled as 'DECedent') are all said to mark the death of a relative denoted by the kin term they are attached to.</div><div>(The usage seems to be broader than just kin terms in Kitanemuk; see §12.3.6.)</div><div>It is also claimed that this feature of 'kin terms as verbal forms' is an areal one, also found "i<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px">n the Yuman languages that are spoken along the Colorado River, east of Takic."</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px"><br></span></div>
<div>(Please kindly allow me to share your message so that my reply gets delivered to the OP and those who might find it useful.)</div><div><br></div><div>Reference:</div><div>Hill, Jane H. & Hill, Kenneth C. 2019. Comparative Takic Grammar. Survey of California and other Indian languages. University of California, Berkeley.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Jaeyeong Yang</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">2024년 9월 27일 (금) 오전 12:20, Michael Daniel <<a href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com" target="_blank">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>>님이 작성:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear colleague,<div><br></div><div>together with my students, I am doing a reading course on the typology of nominal tense. </div><div><br></div><div>I think we do not have anything yet to read about nominal tense in Uto-Aztecan. To tell the truth, I did not even know this family had nominal tense - shame on me. Would you recommend a good paper dedicated to nominal tense in this family or any of its languages? Maybe there is a glossed open access corpus of a UA language with a considerable amount of occurrences of nominal tense that we could use?</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you in advance,</div><div><br></div><div>Michael Daniel<br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>--</div><div>Михаил Даниэль</div><div><i>Я осуждаю агрессию моей страны против Украины.</i></div><div>Michael Daniel</div><div><i>I condemn my country's aggression in Ukraine.</i></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">чт, 26 сент. 2024 г. в 13:07, 양재영 via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir="auto">Dear Pattie Epps,</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Tübatulabal (Uto-Aztecan, California) uses a nominal ‘past tense’ suffix -pï- to mark the death of a person (including kins).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The language also has a suffix -bai’i- that is used with a kinship term to indicate the kin being referred to is the last surviving one, and a few other interesting phenomena of expressing the death of the ‘connecting relative’.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Reference: </div><div dir="auto">Voegelin, Charles F. 1935. Tübatulabal Grammar. University of California Press.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best regards,</div><div dir="auto">Jaeyeong Yang</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">2024년 9월 26일 (목) 오후 7:30, Pun Ho Lui via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>님이 작성:<br></div></div></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><span style="font-size:15px">Dear Pattie Epps,</span><div><font style="font-size:15px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></font></div><div><span style="font-size:15px">Narragansett (Algic) is claimed to have a suffix called “absentative” which can encode a deceased person or lost possessions, e.g. nókac-i ‘my late deceased mother’ (mother-ABSENTATIVE).</span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px">Reference:</span></div><div><div title="Page 1" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div><div><p><span style="font-size:15px"><span style="font-weight:700">O’Brien, </span><span style="font-weight:700">Frank Waabu. 2009. </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(44,44,44)">Grammatical Studies in the Narragansett Language (Second Edition). </span><span style="font-weight:700">Aquidneck Indian Council.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight:700;font-size:15px"><br></span></p><p><span style="font-weight:700;font-size:15px">Warmest,</span></p><p><b style="font-size:15px">Pun Ho Lui Joe</b></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Epps, Patience L via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> 於 2024年9月26日 下午6:14 寫道：</div><br><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">Dear all,</div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">I'm writing regarding a phenomenon that appears to be widely attested in Amazonian languages, which my project collaborators and I have been calling a 'deceased referent marker'. We are wondering about the extent to which a comparable phenomenon exists in other languages of the world - from a preliminary survey, it appears to have very few close correlates elsewhere. <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">The Amazonian-type DRM construction involves using a particular linguistic marker (which can usually be identified as more grammatical than lexical, though it's not always an easy distinction to make) within the noun phrase when making direct reference to a deceased referent. This is reminiscent of what occurs in some European languages (e.g. English<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">the<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><b style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">late</b><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span>John,<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span></i>Portuguese<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">o<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><b style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">finado</b><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span>João</i>), but tends to be less lexical and is ubiquitous in discourse, rather than being highly optional and/or limited to more formal registers. In some languages, the DRM is a distinct etymon with no other functions; in others, it overlaps with other functions (most frequently that of a nominal past marker). It is always used with humans (primarily proper names and kin terms), while some languages also allow use with non-human referents. In spite of these variations, there seem to be close parallels in how the construction is formulated and how it is used discursively across many Amazonian languages. <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">An example from Nadëb (Naduhup family, NW Brazil):<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">ee <span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><b style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">makũuh</b><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span> ỹ haw'ëëh doo paah</i><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">father DRM 1sg raise NMLZ PST<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">'It was my late father who raised me (there).'<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">In defining the Amazonian 'type' of DRM, we are focusing on resources that a) consist of a morphological element (affix or clitic hosted by the noun); or b) if arguably more lexical, have a ‘deceased referent’ function that is relatively distinct from other meanings/morphosyntactic expressions and/or appears ubiquitously in DRM contexts. We are excluding other kinds of linguistic strategies for referring to the deceased, including naming prohibitions, necronyms (passing on the deceased's name to a child), more pragmatically optional periphrastic strategies (e.g. 'my dead relative', 'my relative who died recently', etc.). We are also excluding (though we're interested, for comparative purposes) other types of nominal morphology relating to the deceased, e.g. a marker that occurs with a kin term X to mean ‘one whose X has recently died’ in Kayardild (Australia):<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">kangku-kurirr</i><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span>(father’s.father-DEAD) ‘one whose father’s father has recently died’ (Evans 1995: 197).<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">We'd be very grateful for information about comparable phenomena in languages outside South America.</div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">All best,</div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">Pattie Epps<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div></div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Lingtyp mailing list</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> </font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Dan I. Slobin </font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Distinguished Professor Emeritus of
Psychology and </font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Distinguished </font></span></i><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Affiliated </font></span></i><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Professor Emeritus of Linguistics</font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">University of California,
Berkeley</font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">email: <a href="mailto:slobin@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">slobin@berkeley.edu</a></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span style="color:rgb(61,133,198)"><i><span style="font-size:10.6667px"><a href="https://danslobin.academia.edu/research" target="_blank">https://danslobin.academia.edu/research</a><br></span></i></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i style="color:rgb(103,78,167)"><span style="font-size:8pt"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><u><a href="https://archive.org/search?query=Slobin&sin=TXT" target="_blank">https://archive.org/search?query=Slobin&sin=TXT</a></u></span></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">address: 2323 Rose St.,
Berkeley, CA 94708, USA</font></span></i><br></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <br></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">I acknowledge that the UC-Berkeley campus is on the traditional, <br></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">ancestral, and unceded land of the Ohlone people. <br></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"></font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font></div></div>