<div dir="ltr">Hello Pattie,<div><br></div><div>Denesųłiné (Athabaskan) has such a marker nį for deceased referents, similar to "late" but used much more often. It is not obligatory but is commonly used. </div><div><br></div><div>It occurs directly after a kinship term, i.e. "my late cousin“, not so much after proper names or general nouns. After a verb, the same particle nį is a past tense marker (optional, disambiguating, not inflectional). In the following examples you can see both freely used together. Note nį’s use as a tense marker toward the end of the clauses.</div><div><br></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)">(1) setá<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> nį ęne nį ú sedézé ú sechelé ú horelyų́ ejéretué ts’én xait’ázį ts’į yé kozį́ </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> my.father <b>late</b> Mother <b>late</b> and my.younger.sister and my.younger.brother and all Dillon.Łake to autumn boat in there </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> náhídel łí nį sį. <br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> we.go habitual <b>past</b> emphasis</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> "My father, mother, sister and brother [and I] would all make a trip to Dillon Lake by boat in the fall" </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)">(2) nįj́a<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> ú <span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> enę<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> nį<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> eya<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> thetį<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> k’é<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> nį<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span><br> he-arrived when mother <b>late</b> sick<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> she-lay<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> mirative<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span> <b>past</b><span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> ‘When he reached their house, my [late] mother was sick in bed’<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space">Hope this helps,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0mm;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space">Josh Holden </span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 26, 2024 at 10:00 AM Paolo Ramat via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Pattie,<div> the title of a novel by the Nobel Prize winner 1934 Luigi Pirandello <i> is <u>Il <b>fu</b> Mattia Pasca</u>l ,</i>whereby<i> fu (</i>< Lat. <i>fuit </i>3rd sg of the perfect), preceded by the ART<i> il, </i>has exactly the same adjectival function as Engl<i>. late </i>or Port.<i> finado, </i>both preceded by ART.</div><div>An NP such as<i> *I fu Mattia e Giovanni </i>would be ungrammatical, since <i>fu </i>wouldn't agree with the plural <i>Mattia + Giovanni </i>(though <i>I</i> <i>furono (</i>< Lat. <i>fuerunt </i>3rd plur. of the perfect) <i>Mattia e Giov. </i> would sound very strange: <i>Fu, </i>still used in NPs such as <i>Il fu Mattia Pascal</i> , is a stereotyped formula, just as the corresponding Engl. and Port. expressions.</div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div>P.Rt. </div><div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat</span><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div>Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br><div>'Academia Europaea'</div><div>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</div></div><div><div>Università di Pavia (retired)</div><div>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div></div><div><br></div></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">##39 0382 27027</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">347 044 98 44</div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno gio 26 set 2024 alle ore 13:08 양재영 via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir="auto">Dear Pattie Epps,</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Tübatulabal (Uto-Aztecan, California) uses a nominal ‘past tense’ suffix -pï- to mark the death of a person (including kins).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The language also has a suffix -bai’i- that is used with a kinship term to indicate the kin being referred to is the last surviving one, and a few other interesting phenomena of expressing the death of the ‘connecting relative’.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Reference: </div><div dir="auto">Voegelin, Charles F. 1935. Tübatulabal Grammar. University of California Press.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best regards,</div><div dir="auto">Jaeyeong Yang</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">2024년 9월 26일 (목) 오후 7:30, Pun Ho Lui via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>님이 작성:<br></div></div></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><span style="font-size:15px">Dear Pattie Epps,</span><div><font style="font-size:15px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></font></div><div><span style="font-size:15px">Narragansett (Algic) is claimed to have a suffix called “absentative” which can encode a deceased person or lost possessions, e.g. nókac-i ‘my late deceased mother’ (mother-ABSENTATIVE).</span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px">Reference:</span></div><div><div title="Page 1" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div><div><p><span style="font-size:15px"><span style="font-weight:700">O’Brien, </span><span style="font-weight:700">Frank Waabu. 2009. </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(44,44,44)">Grammatical Studies in the Narragansett Language (Second Edition). </span><span style="font-weight:700">Aquidneck Indian Council.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight:700;font-size:15px"><br></span></p><p><span style="font-weight:700;font-size:15px">Warmest,</span></p><p><b style="font-size:15px">Pun Ho Lui Joe</b></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Epps, Patience L via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> 於 2024年9月26日 下午6:14 寫道：</div><br><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">Dear all,</div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">I'm writing regarding a phenomenon that appears to be widely attested in Amazonian languages, which my project collaborators and I have been calling a 'deceased referent marker'. We are wondering about the extent to which a comparable phenomenon exists in other languages of the world - from a preliminary survey, it appears to have very few close correlates elsewhere. <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">The Amazonian-type DRM construction involves using a particular linguistic marker (which can usually be identified as more grammatical than lexical, though it's not always an easy distinction to make) within the noun phrase when making direct reference to a deceased referent. This is reminiscent of what occurs in some European languages (e.g. English<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">the<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><b style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">late</b><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span>John,<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span></i>Portuguese<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">o<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><b style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">finado</b><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span>João</i>), but tends to be less lexical and is ubiquitous in discourse, rather than being highly optional and/or limited to more formal registers. In some languages, the DRM is a distinct etymon with no other functions; in others, it overlaps with other functions (most frequently that of a nominal past marker). It is always used with humans (primarily proper names and kin terms), while some languages also allow use with non-human referents. In spite of these variations, there seem to be close parallels in how the construction is formulated and how it is used discursively across many Amazonian languages. <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">An example from Nadëb (Naduhup family, NW Brazil):<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">ee <span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><b style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">makũuh</b><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span> ỹ haw'ëëh doo paah</i><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">father DRM 1sg raise NMLZ PST<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">'It was my late father who raised me (there).'<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">In defining the Amazonian 'type' of DRM, we are focusing on resources that a) consist of a morphological element (affix or clitic hosted by the noun); or b) if arguably more lexical, have a ‘deceased referent’ function that is relatively distinct from other meanings/morphosyntactic expressions and/or appears ubiquitously in DRM contexts. We are excluding other kinds of linguistic strategies for referring to the deceased, including naming prohibitions, necronyms (passing on the deceased's name to a child), more pragmatically optional periphrastic strategies (e.g. 'my dead relative', 'my relative who died recently', etc.). We are also excluding (though we're interested, for comparative purposes) other types of nominal morphology relating to the deceased, e.g. a marker that occurs with a kin term X to mean ‘one whose X has recently died’ in Kayardild (Australia):<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">kangku-kurirr</i><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span>(father’s.father-DEAD) ‘one whose father’s father has recently died’ (Evans 1995: 197).<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">We'd be very grateful for information about comparable phenomena in languages outside South America.</div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">All best,</div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">Pattie Epps<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div></div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Lingtyp mailing list</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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