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Dear Denis and David, dear all,<br>
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Hungarian has the same convention although I am not sure this is still currently alive. Mentioning deceased person that you were close to include the adjective "szege'ny" 'poor'.</div>
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Edith Moravcsik</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of David Gil via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 27, 2024 7:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Denis CREISSELS <denis.creissels@univ-lyon2.fr><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Epps, Patience L <pattieepps@austin.utexas.edu>; Lingtyp <Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Query: 'Deceased referent' markers</font>
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<div>Dear Denis, all,</div>
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<div>My maternal grandmother, a monolingual speaker of a low-SES Jewish London dialect of English, had exactly the same usage you describe for the Occitan variety, but with English
<i>poor</i>. <br>
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<div>I mention her in particular because I don't think I ever heard this usage from other speakers, though my exposure to and familiarity with English dialects is rather limited, so I'd be curious to learn how widely spread this usage is across English dialects.</div>
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<div>Best,</div>
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<div>David<br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 2:52 PM Denis CREISSELS via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify; line-height:15pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In the Occitan variety that was still spoken in my native village when I was a child, the adjective
<i>paure</i> ['pawre] ‘poor’, but also ‘unfortunate’, was systematically added to personal names when speaking about a recently deceased person.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Denis<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Lingtyp [mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Epps, Patience L via Lingtyp<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 26 septembre 2024 12:15<br>
<b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Query: 'Deceased referent' markers<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I'm writing regarding a phenomenon that appears to be widely attested in Amazonian languages, which my project collaborators and I have been calling a 'deceased referent marker'. We are wondering about the extent to
which a comparable phenomenon exists in other languages of the world - from a preliminary survey, it appears to have very few close correlates elsewhere. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The Amazonian-type DRM construction involves using a particular linguistic marker (which can usually be identified as more grammatical than lexical, though it's not always an easy distinction to make) within the noun
phrase when making direct reference to a deceased referent. This is reminiscent of what occurs in some European languages (e.g. English
<i>the <b>late</b> John, </i>Portuguese <i>o <b>finado</b> João</i>), but tends to be less lexical and is ubiquitous in discourse, rather than being highly optional and/or limited to more formal registers. In some languages, the DRM is a distinct etymon with
no other functions; in others, it overlaps with other functions (most frequently that of a nominal past marker). It is always used with humans (primarily proper names and kin terms), while some languages also allow use with non-human referents. In spite of
these variations, there seem to be close parallels in how the construction is formulated and how it is used discursively across many Amazonian languages. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">An example from Nadëb (Naduhup family, NW Brazil):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US">ee <b>makũuh</b> ỹ haw'ëëh doo paah</span></i><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">father DRM 1sg raise NMLZ PST<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">'It was my late father who raised me (there).'<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In defining the Amazonian 'type' of DRM, we are focusing on resources that a) consist of a morphological element (affix or clitic hosted by the noun); or b) if arguably more lexical, have a ‘deceased referent’ function
that is relatively distinct from other meanings/morphosyntactic expressions and/or appears ubiquitously in DRM contexts. We are excluding other kinds of linguistic strategies for referring to the deceased, including naming prohibitions, necronyms (passing
on the deceased's name to a child), more pragmatically optional periphrastic strategies (e.g. 'my dead relative', 'my relative who died recently', etc.). We are also excluding (though we're interested, for comparative purposes) other types of nominal morphology
relating to the deceased, e.g. a marker that occurs with a kin term X to mean ‘one whose X has recently died’ in Kayardild (Australia):
<i>kangku-kurirr</i> (father’s.father-DEAD) ‘one whose father’s father has recently died’ (Evans 1995: 197).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We'd be very grateful for information about comparable phenomena in languages outside South America.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">All best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Pattie Epps<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<pre cols="72">David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:dapiiiiit@gmail.com" target="_blank">dapiiiiit@gmail.com</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302</pre>
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