<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Dear All,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">Wikipedia has an overview of the many Jewish expressions following
a reference to the deceased: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorifics_for_the_dead_in_Judaism" style="color:rgb(70,120,134);text-decoration:underline">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorifics_for_the_dead_in_Judaism</a>.<span></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">In my Yiddish-English childhood the common expression was in Hebrew: <span lang="HE" dir="RTL" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">עליו/עליה השלום </span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="HE"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span> </span></span>(<i>alav/aleha
ha-shalom) </i>‘upon him/her peace’.<i><span> </span></i>It
was semi-obligatory, muttered in various Yiddish dialects after referring to a
deceased individual in Yiddish or English (“my grandfather ho-óv ha-sholem used
to say…”). The formula remains in use among religious Jews in the
English-speaking world.</font><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">Continuing...</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><font size="2">Dan<br></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">
<br>
<span></span></p>
</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 8:05 AM Paolo Ramat via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><p dir="ltr">Dear All,<br>
speaking of DRM expressions, we are dealing with an infinite and interesting treasure. In Italian you have <i>buonanima</i>, lit. ' good soul ', always postposed to the personal name : "<i>Mario Rossi buonanima</i>", in a sense comparable to the Bavarian <i>selig </i>quoted by Frans Pl.. *<i>buonanima M. R</i>" is not admitted but <i>la buonanima di M. R.</i> is fine. However, ?*<i>Francesco Petrarca/ Giuseppe Garibaldi buonanima</i> would sound very very queer. It seems that the use of <i>buonanima </i>is bound to a reasonably short time after the passing away, as is pointed out by Denis Cr. for the Occitan <span style="font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";font-size:12pt;text-align:justify">adjective</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";font-size:12pt;text-align:justify"> </span><i style="font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";font-size:12pt;text-align:justify">paure,</i><span style="font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";font-size:12pt;text-align:justify"> systematically added to personal names when speaking about a recently deceased person.</span></p><p><span style="font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";font-size:12pt;text-align:justify">Even the Arabic blessing formula "</span>may Allah be merciful with him", immediately following the personal name, could be compared with <i>selig, buonanima</i> as good wishing expressions.</p><p>It would be nice to have a typology of the DRMs !</p><p>Best,</p><p>Paolo</p><p>P.S. <i>compianto '</i>late lamented' (lit. cried together) is used --in a high ,formal style-- as ADJ before the personal name of a person who died more or less recently:<i> il compianto Silvio Berluscon</i>i. It depends on your time measure !. (see Nigel V.'s note)</p><p dir="ltr"> <br></p></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il Ven 27 Set 2024, 14:13 David Gil via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Denis, all,</div><div><br></div><div>My maternal grandmother, a monolingual speaker of a low-SES Jewish London dialect of English, had exactly the same usage you describe for the Occitan variety, but with English <i>poor</i>. <br><br></div><div>I mention her in particular because I don't think I ever heard this usage from other speakers, though my exposure to and familiarity with English dialects is rather limited, so I'd be curious to learn how widely spread this usage is across English dialects.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>David<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 2:52 PM Denis CREISSELS via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div lang="FR"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;line-height:15pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">In the Occitan variety that was still spoken in my native village when I was a child, the adjective <i>paure</i> ['pawre] ‘poor’, but also ‘unfortunate’, was systematically added to personal names when speaking about a recently deceased person.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Denis<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif"">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,"sans-serif""> Lingtyp [mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] <b>De la part de</b> Epps, Patience L via Lingtyp<br><b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 26 septembre 2024 12:15<br><b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Query: 'Deceased referent' markers<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I'm writing regarding a phenomenon that appears to be widely attested in Amazonian languages, which my project collaborators and I have been calling a 'deceased referent marker'. We are wondering about the extent to which a comparable phenomenon exists in other languages of the world - from a preliminary survey, it appears to have very few close correlates elsewhere. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The Amazonian-type DRM construction involves using a particular linguistic marker (which can usually be identified as more grammatical than lexical, though it's not always an easy distinction to make) within the noun phrase when making direct reference to a deceased referent. This is reminiscent of what occurs in some European languages (e.g. English <i>the <b>late</b> John, </i>Portuguese <i>o <b>finado</b> João</i>), but tends to be less lexical and is ubiquitous in discourse, rather than being highly optional and/or limited to more formal registers. In some languages, the DRM is a distinct etymon with no other functions; in others, it overlaps with other functions (most frequently that of a nominal past marker). It is always used with humans (primarily proper names and kin terms), while some languages also allow use with non-human referents. In spite of these variations, there seem to be close parallels in how the construction is formulated and how it is used discursively across many Amazonian languages. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">An example from Nadëb (Naduhup family, NW Brazil):<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US">ee <b>makũuh</b> ỹ haw'ëëh doo paah</span></i><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">father DRM 1sg raise NMLZ PST<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">'It was my late father who raised me (there).'<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In defining the Amazonian 'type' of DRM, we are focusing on resources that a) consist of a morphological element (affix or clitic hosted by the noun); or b) if arguably more lexical, have a ‘deceased referent’ function that is relatively distinct from other meanings/morphosyntactic expressions and/or appears ubiquitously in DRM contexts. We are excluding other kinds of linguistic strategies for referring to the deceased, including naming prohibitions, necronyms (passing on the deceased's name to a child), more pragmatically optional periphrastic strategies (e.g. 'my dead relative', 'my relative who died recently', etc.). We are also excluding (though we're interested, for comparative purposes) other types of nominal morphology relating to the deceased, e.g. a marker that occurs with a kin term X to mean ‘one whose X has recently died’ in Kayardild (Australia): <i>kangku-kurirr</i> (father’s.father-DEAD) ‘one whose father’s father has recently died’ (Evans 1995: 197).<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We'd be very grateful for information about comparable phenomena in languages outside South America.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">All best,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Pattie Epps<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
</div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><pre cols="72">David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/Deutscher+Platz+6,+Leipzig,+04103,+Germany?entry=gmail&source=g" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany</a>
Email: <a href="mailto:dapiiiiit@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">dapiiiiit@gmail.com</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302</pre>
<br></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> </font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Dan I. Slobin </font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Distinguished Professor Emeritus of
Psychology and </font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Distinguished </font></span></i><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Affiliated </font></span></i><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Professor Emeritus of Linguistics</font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">University of California,
Berkeley</font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">email: <a href="mailto:slobin@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">slobin@berkeley.edu</a></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span style="color:rgb(61,133,198)"><i><span style="font-size:10.6667px"><a href="https://danslobin.academia.edu/research" target="_blank">https://danslobin.academia.edu/research</a><br></span></i></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i style="color:rgb(103,78,167)"><span style="font-size:8pt"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><u><a href="https://archive.org/search?query=Slobin&sin=TXT" target="_blank">https://archive.org/search?query=Slobin&sin=TXT</a></u></span></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">address: 2323 Rose St.,
Berkeley, CA 94708, USA</font></span></i><br></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <br></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">I acknowledge that the UC-Berkeley campus is on the traditional, <br></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">ancestral, and unceded land of the Ohlone people. <br></font></span></i></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"></font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font></div></div>