<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default">Dear Pattie,</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">The French equivalent of Eng. <i>late</i> is a form <i>feu</i>, which precedes an NP, whether a proper name or a phrase:</div><div class="gmail_default"><ul><li><i>J'ai connu <b>feu </b>ton père. </i>“I used to know your late father.”</li><li style="direction:ltr"><i>C'est la maison de <b>feu </b>Bernard Hervé. </i>“This is the house of the late Bernard Hervé” <font size="1"> [fictitious name]</font></li></ul></div><div class="gmail_default">The form is stylistically marked these days, of a legal or literary ~ higher register. (It is therefore excluded from Pattie's request; but maybe worth mentioning anyway.)</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">In texts, there is historical variation between an earlier adjectival use [<i>le <b>feu </b>roi</i>] and a later pattern {<i>feu</i> +NP} [<i><b>feu </b>le roi</i>].</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">The French form <i>feu</i> happens to be homophonous with the noun <i>feu</i> 'fire'
🔥🔥 This surely triggers some mental associations between the two notions, in the perception of many French speakers (cf. the puns in <a href="https://www.lefigaro.fr/langue-francaise/actu-des-mots/2017/12/08/37002-20171208ARTFIG00007-feufeu-n-m-se-dit-de-quelqu-un-qui-s-est-eteint.php" target="_blank">this newspaper entry</a>, about a singer who passed away in 2017).</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">However, the homophony is accidental. While the fire noun <i>feu</i> comes from Lat. <i>focus</i> 'hearth' (cf. Ital. <i>fuoco</i>), the 'deceased' word reflects a Medieval Latin adjective *<i><b>fatutus</b></i> 'who has met their fate' — itself derived from <i>fātum</i> 'destiny, fate'.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="direction:ltr">I wonder if *fatutus, or French <i>feu</i>, could in fact also be the source of Italian <i>fu</i> mentioned by Paolo (<i>il <b>fu</b> Mattia Pascal</i>). If that <i>fu</i> does reflect Lat. <i>fuit</i> [3sg perfectum of 'be'] as Paolo suggests, the similarity with French <i>feu</i> would be a coincidence; but the position of <i>fu</i>, between the article and the noun, suggests an adjectival origin rather than verbal.</div><div class="gmail_default">_______<br></div><div class="gmail_default"><br>The plural of <i>feu</i> is <i>feus</i> (<i>nos <b>feus</b> parents</i>) — contrasting with the plural <i>feux</i> of the 🔥 noun <i>feu</i>.</div><div class="gmail_default">The word has a feminine <i>feue </i>: <i><b>feue </b>la Reine</i> "the late Queen", from *fatuta. </div><div class="gmail_default"> </div><div class="gmail_default">There used to be complex rules of agreement in number & gender, depending on the degree of grammaticalisation: <br>one would write <i>la <b>feue</b> Reine</i> (archaic, adjectival use), but <i><b>feu </b>la Reine</i> (when reinterpreted as a non-inflecting particle). </div><div class="gmail_default">Those rules are still taught in prescriptive contexts, e.g. on <a href="https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/clefsfp/index-fra.html?lang=fra&lettr=indx_catlog_f&page=9wRyescDdDRo.html" target="_blank">this page</a> of an official Canadian website.</div><div class="gmail_default"> </div><div class="gmail_default">See also <a href="https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/feu" target="_blank">the entry FEU, FEUE</a> in the CNRTL dictionary of French [→ second tab on the page]</div><div class="gmail_default" style="text-align:center"><img src="cid:ii_m1jwsrxo1" alt="image.png" width="257" height="92" style="margin-right:0px"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">According to that entry, a spelling reform in 1901 simplified the orthographic rules by promoting number & gender agreement with the noun, in all cases (→ <i>la feue Reine</i> / <i>feue la Reine</i>).</div><div class="gmail_default">_______</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Finally, an interesting question, both when describing French <i>feu</i> and when doing a typology of similar forms, would be to find out in what precise contexts it is <b>pragmatically appropriate</b> to use deceased referent markers. </div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">For example, I don't believe it would be natural to say ??{<i>We visited the house of the <b>late</b> Frédéric Chopin</i>}. Or perhaps this could be said, but would bear some particular connotations (perhaps some sense of personal affection towards this composer?).</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">One could think that the criteria may include whether the death is 1/ "recent", and~or 2/ new information to the hearer. But I don't think this captures the whole story. This year I heard a politician speak of <i><b>feu</b> le Général de Gaulle</i>, even though he died in 1970 (not so recent), and that was not new information to the audience. Perhaps relevant was the fact that the referent is of living memory, i.e. there are still some people who remember when de Gaulle was alive. It's like you use <i>feu</i> (or Eng. <i>late</i>?) only if you want to underline a personal connection between yourself, or your community, and the deceased referent. In the case of the politician, the undertext was "<i>The late Général, whom many of us knew and admired during our lifetimes, would disapprove of the current political situation if he were still among us today.</i>" This would not work with Napoléon, I think.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Conversely, a death that is really recent, or informationally foregrounded, would not be a suitable context for using the marker:<br>??{<i>Many were killed in the plane crash, including the <b>late</b> pilot</i>}.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">In sum, I'd be curious to know if the pragmatics of using "deceased referent" markers tend to be cross-linguistically recurrent, or if they differ across languages and cultures. Pattie's description suggests that the contexts of use, and frequency, differ between Europe and the Amazon, but I wonder in what ways.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">best</div><div style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><font size="2" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Alex</font><hr width="70" size="1" noshade align="left" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.33px"><p style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif"><font size="2"><span style="color:rgb(69,129,142)">Alex François</span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></p><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><a href="http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/" rel="noopener" style="text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank">LaTTiCe</a> — <a title="ENS" href="https://www.cnrs.fr/en" rel="noopener" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank">CNRS–</a></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><a title="ENS" href="https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094" rel="noopener" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank">ENS</a></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1">–</font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><a title="ENS" href="https://www.psl.eu/en" rel="noopener" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank">PSL</a></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1">–</font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><a title="ENS" href="http://www.univ-paris3.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" rel="noopener" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank">Sorbonne nouvelle</a><br><a href="https://researchers.anu.edu.au/researchers/francois-a" rel="noopener" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank">Australian National University</a></font><font size="1"><font size="1"><br></font></font></span><div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><font size="1"></font><a href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/" rel="noopener" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank">Personal homepage</a><br></font></span></div><div><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___</font><br><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"></font></span></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">Paolo Ramat via Lingtyp</strong> <span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>></span><br>Date: Thu, 26 Sept 2024 at 16:00<br>Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Query: 'Deceased referent' markers<br>To: 양재영 <<a href="mailto:tastymango@snu.ac.kr" target="_blank">tastymango@snu.ac.kr</a>><br>Cc: Epps, Patience L <<a href="mailto:pattieepps@austin.utexas.edu" target="_blank">pattieepps@austin.utexas.edu</a>>, <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><br><br><div dir="ltr">Dear Pattie,<div> the title of a novel by the Nobel Prize winner 1934 Luigi Pirandello <i> is <u>Il <b>fu</b> Mattia Pasca</u>l ,</i>whereby<i> fu (</i>< Lat. <i>fuit </i>3rd sg of the perfect), preceded by the ART<i> il, </i>has exactly the same adjectival function as Engl<i>. late </i>or Port.<i> finado, </i>both preceded by ART.</div><div>An NP such as<i> *I fu Mattia e Giovanni </i>would be ungrammatical, since <i>fu </i>wouldn't agree with the plural <i>Mattia + Giovanni </i>(though <i>I</i> <i>furono (</i>< Lat. <i>fuerunt </i>3rd plur. of the perfect) <i>Mattia e Giov. </i> would sound very strange: <i>Fu, </i>still used in NPs such as <i>Il fu Mattia Pascal</i> , is a stereotyped formula, just as the corresponding Engl. and Port. expressions.</div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div>P.Rt. </div><div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat</span><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div>Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br><div>'Academia Europaea'</div><div>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</div></div><div><div>Università di Pavia (retired)</div><div>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div></div><div><br></div></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">##39 0382 27027</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">347 044 98 44</div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno gio 26 set 2024 alle ore 13:08 양재영 via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir="auto">Dear Pattie Epps,</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Tübatulabal (Uto-Aztecan, California) uses a nominal ‘past tense’ suffix -pï- to mark the death of a person (including kins).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The language also has a suffix -bai’i- that is used with a kinship term to indicate the kin being referred to is the last surviving one, and a few other interesting phenomena of expressing the death of the ‘connecting relative’.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Reference: </div><div dir="auto">Voegelin, Charles F. 1935. Tübatulabal Grammar. University of California Press.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best regards,</div><div dir="auto">Jaeyeong Yang</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">2024년 9월 26일 (목) 오후 7:30, Pun Ho Lui via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>님이 작성:<br></div></div></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><span style="font-size:15px">Dear Pattie Epps,</span><div><font style="font-size:15px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></font></div><div><span style="font-size:15px">Narragansett (Algic) is claimed to have a suffix called “absentative” which can encode a deceased person or lost possessions, e.g. nókac-i ‘my late deceased mother’ (mother-ABSENTATIVE).</span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px">Reference:</span></div><div><div title="Page 1" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div><div><p><span style="font-size:15px"><span style="font-weight:700">O’Brien, </span><span style="font-weight:700">Frank Waabu. 2009. </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(44,44,44)">Grammatical Studies in the Narragansett Language (Second Edition). </span><span style="font-weight:700">Aquidneck Indian Council.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-weight:700;font-size:15px"><br></span></p><p><span style="font-weight:700;font-size:15px">Warmest,</span></p><p><b style="font-size:15px">Pun Ho Lui Joe</b></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Epps, Patience L via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> 於 2024年9月26日 下午6:14 寫道：</div><br><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">Dear all,</div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">I'm writing regarding a phenomenon that appears to be widely attested in Amazonian languages, which my project collaborators and I have been calling a 'deceased referent marker'. We are wondering about the extent to which a comparable phenomenon exists in other languages of the world - from a preliminary survey, it appears to have very few close correlates elsewhere. <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">The Amazonian-type DRM construction involves using a particular linguistic marker (which can usually be identified as more grammatical than lexical, though it's not always an easy distinction to make) within the noun phrase when making direct reference to a deceased referent. This is reminiscent of what occurs in some European languages (e.g. English<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">the<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><b style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">late</b><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span>John,<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span></i>Portuguese<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">o<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><b style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">finado</b><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span>João</i>), but tends to be less lexical and is ubiquitous in discourse, rather than being highly optional and/or limited to more formal registers. In some languages, the DRM is a distinct etymon with no other functions; in others, it overlaps with other functions (most frequently that of a nominal past marker). It is always used with humans (primarily proper names and kin terms), while some languages also allow use with non-human referents. In spite of these variations, there seem to be close parallels in how the construction is formulated and how it is used discursively across many Amazonian languages. <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">An example from Nadëb (Naduhup family, NW Brazil):<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">ee <span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><b style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">makũuh</b><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span> ỹ haw'ëëh doo paah</i><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">father DRM 1sg raise NMLZ PST<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">'It was my late father who raised me (there).'<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">In defining the Amazonian 'type' of DRM, we are focusing on resources that a) consist of a morphological element (affix or clitic hosted by the noun); or b) if arguably more lexical, have a ‘deceased referent’ function that is relatively distinct from other meanings/morphosyntactic expressions and/or appears ubiquitously in DRM contexts. We are excluding other kinds of linguistic strategies for referring to the deceased, including naming prohibitions, necronyms (passing on the deceased's name to a child), more pragmatically optional periphrastic strategies (e.g. 'my dead relative', 'my relative who died recently', etc.). We are also excluding (though we're interested, for comparative purposes) other types of nominal morphology relating to the deceased, e.g. a marker that occurs with a kin term X to mean ‘one whose X has recently died’ in Kayardild (Australia):<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span><i style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">kangku-kurirr</i><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"> </span>(father’s.father-DEAD) ‘one whose father’s father has recently died’ (Evans 1995: 197).<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">We'd be very grateful for information about comparable phenomena in languages outside South America.</div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">All best,</div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif">Pattie Epps<u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> <u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u></div><div style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"><u style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif"></u> </div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
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