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Hi Seppo and all,</div>
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In Pangkhua (Tibeto-Burman, Bangladesh), constructions with an "agentive causee" mark the verb solely with the preverbal, (and archaic) causative
<i>ma-</i> 'CAUS', as illustrated in example (1). In contrast, constructions with an "unagentive causee" mark the verb with both the preverbal causative
<i>ma-</i> and the postverbal causative <i>-tir</i> 'CAUS', as shown in example (2). In the examples, note the distinct use of the verbs
<i>muʔ</i> ‘see’, which involves a non-volitional act, and <i>en</i> ‘look’, which involves a volitional act, highlighting the "agentive–unagentive" distinction (Akter, 2024:
<i>A Grammar of Pangkhua</i>. Berlin/Boston: De Gruyter Mouton).</div>
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(1) <i>nunɑu t̪lɑpɑh əmɑmuʔ</i></div>
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nu nɑu t̪lapɑ [ə=<b>mɑ</b>-muʔ] pred</div>
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<i> </i> mother child moon 3.sg.subj=<b>caus</b>-see</div>
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‘The mother <b>showed</b> the moon to the child.’ </div>
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(2) <i>nunɑu t̪lɑpah ʔɑmɑʔent̪ir</i></div>
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nu nɑu t̪lɑpɑ [ə=mɑ-en- <b>t̪ir</b>] pred</div>
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mother child moon 3.sg.subj=caus-look <b>man</b></div>
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‘The mother <b>let/made</b> the child look at the moon.’ </div>
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Sent from <a href="http://aka.ms/weboutlook" id="OWA6556ba04-7afb-22c3-38f7-3125429fee35" class="OWAAutoLink">
Outlook</a></div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Kittilä, Seppo via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 30, 2024 2:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Riccardo Giomi <r.giomi@uva.nl>; Haig, Geoffrey <geoffrey.haig@uni-bamberg.de><br>
<b>Cc:</b> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Agentive vs. unagentive causees?</font>
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Dear all,</div>
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Thank you very much for all your answers to my query, they have all been very helpful. As for Jürgen's message, I may specify what I meant a bit, since I very well get that the idea of an accidentally acting causee is a bit odd. First, the examples that Riccardo
gave would be one good example of this. What I originally had in time when I sent the query was cases like 'Great. look what you made me do, I broke this vase'. This sentence would be possible (at least in my L2 variety of English) when, for example, someone
pushes me making me stumble and hit a vase that falls down and breaks. In that case, someone else causes me do to cause another state-of-affairs that results in a broken vase. I know that the causation by the causer and the role of causee are not understood
in the prototypical sense in these cases, but in any case an external causer causes me to participate in an event of breaking and my action is accidental/involuntary/not controlled.</div>
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Did this make things clearer? All the best,</div>
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Seppo</div>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>Lähettäjä:</b> Riccardo Giomi <r.giomi@uva.nl><br>
<b>Lähetetty:</b> tiistai 29. lokakuuta 2024 20.16<br>
<b>Vastaanottaja:</b> Kittilä, Seppo <seppo.kittila@helsinki.fi>; Haig, Geoffrey <geoffrey.haig@uni-bamberg.de><br>
<b>Kopio:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Aihe:</b> Re: Agentive vs. unagentive causees?</font>
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Dear all,</div>
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One language that might possibly be relevant to both Seppo's and Geoff's messages (if only, perhaps, tangentially) could be Mongsen Ao. Below is how the dative-marked / unmarked causee opposition is described in Coupe's grammar (p. 195):</div>
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<img size="102402" style="max-width:460px" data-outlook-trace="F:3|T:3" src="cid:45a17d4e-80d9-487d-a008-da74913126b8"></div>
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And below is an example showing how the 'agentive' (AGT) case enclitic can be used to stress the volitional involvement of the A argument (p. 157), with no change to the verb:</div>
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Hope this helps!</div>
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Best,</div>
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R</div>
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______</div>
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Coupe, A. R. 2007. <i>A Grammar of Mongsen Ao </i> [Mouton Grammar Series MGL, 39]<i>.
</i>Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.</div>
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______</div>
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<div style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(23,78,134)">Riccardo Giomi</div>
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Assistant Professor of Functional Linguistics</div>
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University of Amsterdam</div>
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Faculty of Humanities: Department of Linguistics</div>
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Spuistraat 134, 1012 VB, Amsterdam, The Netherlands</div>
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<div id="x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Haig, Geoffrey via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 29 October 2024 18:56<br>
<b>To:</b> Kittilä, Seppo <seppo.kittila@helsinki.fi><br>
<b>Cc:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Agentive vs. unagentive causees?</font>
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<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear Seppo,</span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I can’t help you with examples of distinct causative markers according to volitionality/agentivity of the causee, but I was curious about your remark re the related
alternation on causers (I broke X accidentally/on purpose), and the reference to Faucconier (2012). I assume you mean her 2012 thesis?
</span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">As I read Faucconiier, a key take-away point of her work was in fact the typological paucity of strategies for flagging volitionality vs. non-volitionality of a transitive
subject (A), on the A itself. It can be done by a shift in the verb (often involving a voice alternation), but apparently not often via flagging alone.</span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I found the claim surprising at the time, but I have to admit I have not actually since found a language that exhibits what (I think) she means, which would be a language
that had a marker, –X, to differentiate a volitional breaker from non-volitional breaker, without accompanying changes to the verb (Jane broke the vase (i.e. accidentally) vs. Jane-x broke the vase (intentionally)).
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<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I am aware of such examples with intransitive verbs of course (the famous Batsbi/Tsova-Tush examples, and so on). But not of clear cases of transitives.
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<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Anyway, I’d be happy to hear of clear examples of volitionality-based differential-A marking (ruling out those accompanied by a change of lexical verb (common with light
verbs), or a voice shift on the verb).</span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Not sure if we need to open a sub-thread on the list for this, could be just directly relayed to me. I’d be happy to post a general summary of whatever comes in,</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Best wishes</span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Geoff</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D">**************************************</span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Geoffrey Haig</span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Professor of Linguistics</span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Institut fuer Orientalistik</span></p>
<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Universität Bamberg</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Von:</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Kittilä, Seppo via Lingtyp<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 29. Oktober 2024 15:52<br>
<b>An:</b> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [Lingtyp] Agentive vs. unagentive causees?</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",serif; color:black">Does anyone here happen to know whether there are languages that would code what I have labelled here as agentive and unagentive causees differently. I refer here to cases like
'John made me build a house' (agentive causee) and 'great, now you made me break this' (unagentive causee). In both cases, the causee is responsible for what happens, but there are clear differences in whether the causee acts volitionally, purposefully and
is in control. There are many languages where the agentivity/volitionality of the causer is formally manifest in cases like 'I broke something on purpose/accidentally' (for example the case marking of the Causer varies accordingly, see, e.g., Fauconnier 2012),
but are there similar cases for Causees. And I am not looking for cases where the degree of volitionality of the Causee is different as in 'I made/let him do something', but cases where the coding of a Causee that accidentally causes something to happen is
different from a Causee whose action is volitional and controlled.</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",serif; color:black">All the best,</span></p>
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<p class="x_x_x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",serif; color:black">Seppo</span></p>
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