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Dear Jürgen and Jaeyeong,</div>
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Thank you very much for your responses and the references. I have been now thinking about (mostly Finnish) causatives a lot, and there is much more to them than I had realized before.</div>
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All the best, and thanks again to all of you for your help,</div>
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Seppo</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>Lähettäjä:</b> 양재영 <tastymango@snu.ac.kr><br>
<b>Lähetetty:</b> perjantai 1. marraskuuta 2024 4.28<br>
<b>Vastaanottaja:</b> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Kopio:</b> Kittilä, Seppo <seppo.kittila@helsinki.fi><br>
<b>Aihe:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Agentive vs. unagentive causees?</font>
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<div dir="auto">Dear Seppo,</div>
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<div dir="auto">Korean (which happens to be my L1) exhibits a case marker alternation on causees in the syntactic causative construction (V-key ha-).</div>
<div dir="auto">The condition for which case marker is used is claimed by some to be of implicational nature, as shown in the examples below:</div>
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<div dir="auto">emma-ka ai-ka/-lul/-eykey pap-ul mek-key ha-yess-ta</div>
<div dir="auto">mother-NOM child-NOM/ACC/DAT rice-ACC eat-CAUS-PAST-DECL</div>
<div dir="auto">Causer Causee Theme Verb</div>
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<div dir="auto">All of above are said to be acceptable, which I confirm. Also, Nam & Ko (2019) argues that here the nominative Causee is being ‘allowed’ to eat rice by the Causer, whereas the accusative one is being ‘forced’ and the dative one is being ‘advised’
to do so.</div>
<div dir="auto">I do agree with the claimed difference in agentivity/volitionality of Causee in this kind of alternation, but I also suspect there is much more to it, and it should be emphasized that the implication is very subtle and easy to cancel.</div>
<div dir="auto">Below is some relevant literature, unfortunately in Korean, on the phenomenon:</div>
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<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:-apple-system,helveticaneue; font-size:16px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none; float:none; display:inline!important; background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0); border-color:rgb(0,0,0); color:rgb(0,0,0)">남기심•고영근
[</span>Nam, Gisim & Ko, Yeonggeun]. 2019. 표준국어문법론 [Korean Standard Grammar]. 한국문화사 [Hankook Munhwasa].</div>
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<div dir="auto">김영희 [Kim, Yeonghui]. 1993. “-게 하-“ 사동 구문의 세 유형 [Three types of -key ha- causative construction]. 어문학(語文學) [EOMUNHAK — The Korean Language and Literature] 54: 89–120.</div>
<div dir="auto">김철균•엄홍준 [Kim, Chulkyun & Um, Hongjoon]. 2020. 장형 사동 구문의 수용성에 대한 양적 연구 — 한국어 장형 사동 구문의 피사동주 격 교체를 중심으로 [A Quantitative Study of the Acceptability of Long-Form Causative Constructions — Focusing on the Case Alternation of the Causees]. 어문논집(語文論集)
[Journal of The Society of Korean Language and Literature] 82: 7–40.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Hope this helps.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Best,</div>
<div dir="auto">Jaeyeong Yang</div>
<div dir="auto">Dept. of Linguistics, </div>
<div dir="auto">Seoul National University</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">2024년 10월 30일 (수) 오후 9:40, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>님이 작성:<br>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear Seppo et al. – I understand. I think this is a terminological issue. In my mind, what you describe is an involuntary causee involved against their will in bringing about a to them undesirable
outcome (or so the speaker frames it). To me, this is not the same as an accidental agent. Accidental agents have a plan of action and then either realize that plan with unintended consequences or wind up realizing a different action from what they had intended,
as described by Alicke (2000). To me, this frame is difficult to apply to causees, since they only have a plan of action if they have control over the induced action. For example, imagine A asking B to do the dishes, and B breaking a glass in the process.
In this case, B is an accidental agent – but do they get to blame A for the breaking of the glass, so that they (B) could be construed as the causee of the breaking event? I guess that’s an empirical question, and the answer might depend on the language. –
Best – Juergen<u style="font-family:"CMU Serif""></u><u style="font-family:"CMU Serif""></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""><u style="font-family:"CMU Serif""></u> <u style="font-family:"CMU Serif""></u></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Alicke, Mark D. 2000. Culpable control and the psychology of blame.
<i style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Psychological Bulletin</i> 126(4): 556–574.<u style="font-family:"CMU Serif""></u><u style="font-family:"CMU Serif""></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
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Web: </span><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:black"> <br>
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<b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span style="color:black">Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Kittilä, Seppo via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, October 30, 2024 at 02:59<br>
<b>To: </b>Riccardo Giomi <<a href="mailto:r.giomi@uva.nl" target="_blank">r.giomi@uva.nl</a>>, Haig, Geoffrey <<a href="mailto:geoffrey.haig@uni-bamberg.de" target="_blank">geoffrey.haig@uni-bamberg.de</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Agentive vs. unagentive causees?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">Thank you very much for all your answers to my query, they have all been very helpful. As for Jürgen's message, I may specify what I meant a bit, since I very well get that the idea
of an accidentally acting causee is a bit odd. First, the examples that Riccardo gave would be one good example of this. What I originally had in time when I sent the query was cases like 'Great. look what you made me do, I broke this vase'. This sentence
would be possible (at least in my L2 variety of English) when, for example, someone pushes me making me stumble and hit a vase that falls down and breaks. In that case, someone else causes me do to cause another state-of-affairs that results in a broken vase.
I know that the causation by the causer and the role of causee are not understood in the prototypical sense in these cases, but in any case an external causer causes me to participate in an event of breaking and my action is accidental/involuntary/not controlled.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">Did this make things clearer? All the best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:black">Lähettäjä:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:black"> Riccardo Giomi <<a href="mailto:r.giomi@uva.nl" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">r.giomi@uva.nl</a>><br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Lähetetty:</b> tiistai 29. lokakuuta 2024 20.16<br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Vastaanottaja:</b> Kittilä, Seppo <<a href="mailto:seppo.kittila@helsinki.fi" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">seppo.kittila@helsinki.fi</a>>; Haig, Geoffrey <<a href="mailto:geoffrey.haig@uni-bamberg.de" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">geoffrey.haig@uni-bamberg.de</a>><br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Kopio:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Aihe:</b> Re: Agentive vs. unagentive causees?</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">One language that might possibly be relevant to both Seppo's and Geoff's messages (if only, perhaps, tangentially) could be Mongsen Ao. Below is how the dative-marked / unmarked causee
opposition is described in Coupe's grammar (p. 195):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">And below is an example showing how the 'agentive' (AGT) case enclitic can be used to stress the volitional involvement of the A argument (p. 157), with no change to the verb:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">Hope this helps!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">R<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">______<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:black">Coupe, A.</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">R. 2007.
<i>A Grammar of Mongsen Ao </i> [Mouton Grammar Series MGL, 39]<i>. </i>Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt; color:rgb(23,78,134)">Riccardo Giomi<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif; color:rgb(23,78,134)">Assistant Professor of Functional Linguistics<u style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif"></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif; color:rgb(23,78,134)">University of Amsterdam<u style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif"></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif; color:rgb(23,78,134)">Faculty of Humanities: Department of Linguistics<u style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif"></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif; color:rgb(23,78,134)"><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/Spuistraat+134,+1012+VB,+Amsterdam,+The+Netherlands?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank" style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif">Spuistraat
134, 1012 VB, Amsterdam, The Netherlands</a><u style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif"></u></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:black"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of Haig, Geoffrey via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</b> 29 October 2024 18:56<br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</b> Kittilä, Seppo <<a href="mailto:seppo.kittila@helsinki.fi" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">seppo.kittila@helsinki.fi</a>><br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Agentive vs. unagentive causees?</span>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear Seppo,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I can’t help you with examples of distinct causative markers according to volitionality/agentivity of the causee, but I was curious about your remark re the
related alternation on causers (I broke X accidentally/on purpose), and the reference to Faucconier (2012). I assume you mean her 2012 thesis?
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I read Faucconiier, a key take-away point of her work was in fact the typological paucity of strategies for flagging volitionality vs. non-volitionality
of a transitive subject (A), on the A itself. It can be done by a shift in the verb (often involving a voice alternation), but apparently not often via flagging alone.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I found the claim surprising at the time, but I have to admit I have not actually since found a language that exhibits what (I think) she means, which would
be a language that had a marker, –X, to differentiate a volitional breaker from non-volitional breaker, without accompanying changes to the verb (Jane broke the vase (i.e. accidentally) vs. Jane-x broke the vase (intentionally)).
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I am aware of such examples with intransitive verbs of course (the famous Batsbi/Tsova-Tush examples, and so on). But not of clear cases of transitives.
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Anyway, I’d be happy to hear of clear examples of volitionality-based differential-A marking (ruling out those accompanied by a change of lexical verb (common
with light verbs), or a voice shift on the verb).</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Not sure if we need to open a sub-thread on the list for this, could be just directly relayed to me. I’d be happy to post a general summary of whatever comes
in,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Best wishes</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Geoff</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:14pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">**************************************</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Geoffrey Haig</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Professor of Linguistics</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Institut fuer Orientalistik</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Universität Bamberg</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">96047 Bamberg</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Von:</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Im Auftrag von </b>Kittilä, Seppo via Lingtyp<br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 29. Oktober 2024 15:52<br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">An:</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Betreff:</b> [Lingtyp] Agentive vs. unagentive causees?</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif; color:black">Dear all,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif; color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif; color:black">Does anyone here happen to know whether there are languages that would code what I have labelled here as agentive and unagentive causees differently. I refer here
to cases like 'John made me build a house' (agentive causee) and 'great, now you made me break this' (unagentive causee). In both cases, the causee is responsible for what happens, but there are clear differences in whether the causee acts volitionally, purposefully
and is in control. There are many languages where the agentivity/volitionality of the causer is formally manifest in cases like 'I broke something on purpose/accidentally' (for example the case marking of the Causer varies accordingly, see, e.g., Fauconnier
2012), but are there similar cases for Causees. And I am not looking for cases where the degree of volitionality of the Causee is different as in 'I made/let him do something', but cases where the coding of a Causee that accidentally causes something to happen
is different from a Causee whose action is volitional and controlled.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif; color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif; color:black">All the best,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif; color:black">Seppo</span><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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