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<div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%">Bernat,</span></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%"><br></span></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%">I work on Khatso, a Tibeto-Burman language spoke in a single village
in Yunnan, China. I find that speakers have very limited insight into language
structure. The only times I have seen any spontaneous descriptions of language
use are these:</span></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><br></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%">-- All Khatso speakers also speak the local Mandarin dialect.
When speaking to outsiders about what Khatso is like, they invariably go to the
basic word order difference, since Khatso is SOV and Mandarin SVO. This seems
to be a canned response, likely because the difference is very basic and
noticeable and it’s something that everyone can understand on both sides.</span></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><br></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%">-- Even in the village of 5600 people, there are two dialects.
The minority dialect mainly differs in some vowel use. Everyone in the village
is familiar with the difference, and each can imitate the variety that is not
their own. (Everyone is very good-natured about it; there is no standard.)</span></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><br></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%">However, speakers have no introspective ideas about Khatso morphosyntax. For example, the language has multiple multifunctional
particles, but speakers are always surprised when I point out that particle X
is used in both construction A and construction B, even though both are
frequent expressions used daily. Another example: the language does not have a superlative
construction, just a cleft construction that connotes superlativity in certain
contexts. Speakers are surprised by this too, and, often try to hunt for an element that can be directly translated into the Mandarin superlative particle before they concede no such element exists. <br></span></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%"><br></span></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%">I think the key factor here is that Khatso has no writing
system and is not taught in school. Therefore, speakers are not familiar with
the concept of analyzing it as a thing in the world separate from its daily use.
This is not a natural act (except for us linguists). I find the same kind of thing when
I ask my native-English speaking students to describe the difference between ‘a’
and ‘the’; they are always stumped, while their 2L classmates can easily do so.
It seems to me that language structure only becomes apparent organically when
it is compared to another system, like another dialect or language, and even this is only done at a superficial level.<br></span></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><br></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%">I’ll be interested to hear what other responses you get to
your query.</span></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><br></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%">Cheers,</span></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><br></div><div class="ydpc515c6dfMsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%">Chris Donlay</span></div>
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On Saturday, December 28, 2024 at 04:00:12 AM PST, lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
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<div><div dir="ltr">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">You can reach the person managing the list at<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="mailto:lingtyp-owner@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp-owner@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br></div><div dir="ltr">than "Re: Contents of Lingtyp digest..."<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Today's Topics:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> 1. Traditional view of language and grammar in indigenous<br></div><div dir="ltr"> societies (Bernat Bardagil Mas)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 2. Re: Traditional view of language and grammar in indigenous<br></div><div dir="ltr"> societies (Egor Kashkin)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 1<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 15:09:18 +0000<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Bernat Bardagil Mas <<a href="mailto:bernat.bardagil@ugent.be" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bernat.bardagil@ugent.be</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: "lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: [Lingtyp] Traditional view of language and grammar in<br></div><div dir="ltr"> indigenous societies<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a href="mailto:VI1PR09MB27506785B57B26CE09327748880E2@VI1PR09MB2750.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">VI1PR09MB27506785B57B26CE09327748880E2@VI1PR09MB2750.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"> <br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Dear all,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">As anyone working closely with indigenous languages and cultures of the Americas, we have seen multiple instances of the awareness that indigenous peoples have of everything that surrounds them, with detailed accounts and explanations ranging from social aspects to natural or supernatural phenomena.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">We have come to wonder whether, and how frequently, this type of reflection is attested also for language ? not so much the origin of language, but its structure and nature. Have any of you encountered anything similar to this notion among indigenous communities, regarding the structure of their own language? Or, are you aware of any mentions of something that could correspond to traces of this type of indigenous linguistic or grammatical knowledge?<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Thank you,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Bernat Bardagil i Mas & Sara Larios i Ongay<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">- -<br></div><div dir="ltr">Bernat Bardagil<br></div><div dir="ltr">Postdoctoral researcher<br></div><div dir="ltr">Department of Linguistics, Ghent University<br></div><div dir="ltr">research.flw.ugent.be/en/bernat.bardagil<<a href="https://research.flw.ugent.be/en/bernat.bardagil" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://research.flw.ugent.be/en/bernat.bardagil</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20241227/340d53c5/attachment-0001.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20241227/340d53c5/attachment-0001.htm</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 2<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:04:32 +0300<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Egor Kashkin <<a href="mailto:egorka1988@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">egorka1988@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Bernat Bardagil Mas <<a href="mailto:bernat.bardagil@ugent.be" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">bernat.bardagil@ugent.be</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: "lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Traditional view of language and grammar in<br></div><div dir="ltr"> indigenous societies<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <CALKwh=hzauKHwgT+bgYt5-+XvH6ZgmYOMBHyQyfPJRdsAnqooA@mail.gmail.com><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Dear Bernat,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I have fieldwork experience with the dialects of some Uralic languages<br></div><div dir="ltr">in Russia. Maybe the following observations are of interest for you:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-- My consultants usually have some knowledge of the standard language<br></div><div dir="ltr">(e.g. they learnt it at school, follow the mass media etc.), and there<br></div><div dir="ltr">may be stereotypes about some structural patterns, e.g. basic word<br></div><div dir="ltr">order. Or as one of my Hill Mari consultants (a school teacher) told<br></div><div dir="ltr">me: "Whatever stands in Russian sits in Hill Mari". She meant that in<br></div><div dir="ltr">Russian the verb 'stand' has a wide range of uses in the posture<br></div><div dir="ltr">domain, whereas in Hill Mari the posture predicate with the widest use<br></div><div dir="ltr">is 'sit'. They are often translational equivalents to each other, but<br></div><div dir="ltr">in fact not in 100% of cases.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-- Of course, consultants often hypothesize about the difference<br></div><div dir="ltr">between quasi-synonymous forms or structures. Sometimes this gives a<br></div><div dir="ltr">researcher some hints, sometimes not (e.g. stereotypical terms such as<br></div><div dir="ltr">"present tense" or "past tense" can be used as a memory from school,<br></div><div dir="ltr">but this may contradict both the data and the linguistically correct<br></div><div dir="ltr">use of such terms).<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-- They often notice some differences between their dialect and the<br></div><div dir="ltr">standard language, or between different dialects, mainly in phonetics<br></div><div dir="ltr">or in the lexicon ("when we pronounce ?, in the standard language<br></div><div dir="ltr">there is i?"). Probably this can mark whether a speaker is "ours" or<br></div><div dir="ltr">"not ours". At the same time one should be careful with such<br></div><div dir="ltr">statements, as they can be made in order to find a reasonable (albeit<br></div><div dir="ltr">false) explanation for ungrammatical stimuli during elicitation. For<br></div><div dir="ltr">example, speakers of Izhma Komi sometimes comment on ungrammatical<br></div><div dir="ltr">sentences by saying that "it is possible in Standard Komi" (or, as<br></div><div dir="ltr">they say, "??? ? ???? ???? ???????" -- "People can say so in the Komi<br></div><div dir="ltr">Soviet Republic"), but in fact it is not.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-- Some consultants have judgements about the contact-induced nature<br></div><div dir="ltr">of some linguistic phenomena. For example, in Udmurt there are complex<br></div><div dir="ltr">predicates which probably replicate a Turkic pattern. One of my<br></div><div dir="ltr">consultants (who works as a dentist) told me that such constructions<br></div><div dir="ltr">copy Tatar structures and gave some parallel examples from Tatar (many<br></div><div dir="ltr">Udmurt speakers in this area speak or at least understand Tatar).<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Egor Kashkin<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">??, 27 ???. 2024??. ? 18:09, Bernat Bardagil Mas via Lingtyp<br></div><div dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Dear all,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> As anyone working closely with indigenous languages and cultures of the Americas, we have seen multiple instances of the awareness that indigenous peoples have of everything that surrounds them, with detailed accounts and explanations ranging from social aspects to natural or supernatural phenomena.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> We have come to wonder whether, and how frequently, this type of reflection is attested also for language ? not so much the origin of language, but its structure and nature. Have any of you encountered anything similar to this notion among indigenous communities, regarding the structure of their own language? Or, are you aware of any mentions of something that could correspond to traces of this type of indigenous linguistic or grammatical knowledge?<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Thank you,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Bernat Bardagil i Mas & Sara Larios i Ongay<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> - -<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Bernat Bardagil<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Postdoctoral researcher<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Department of Linguistics, Ghent University<br></div><div dir="ltr">> research.flw.ugent.be/en/bernat.bardagil<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Digest Footer<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 123, Issue 20<br></div><div dir="ltr">****************************************<br></div></div>
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