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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Dear Mira,</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">In Romanian there is a specialized determiner for what you call "scalar <i>some</i>" : <i>unii</i> "one-the.mpl", <i>unele</i> "one-the.fpl" . This word does not have the distribution of Spanish "unos", but rather resembles French "certain". I guess the definite forms (with -i, -le = "-the") may be explained from an original pronominal use (where we find "one-the" also in the singular).</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">In the oblique case (genitive-dative), the determiner does not have the def. marker ("<i>un-or</i>" = "one-obl.pl") and the form is not restricted to the "scalar" use (it also supplies the oblique of the "non-scalar" plural indefinite article "nişte" = "non-scalar" "some") <br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">As this determiner is only plural, it cannot be used with mass nouns: we have to use "o parte din" ("a part of", lit. "a part from"). In your example with the apples, "o parte din" or the small number quantifier "câteva" ("how-many+indef.-marker") are preferable because the apples are seen as a mass, there are not relevant distinctions between the individual apples chosen.<br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">All the best,</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Ion Giurgea</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div>
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On Thursday, January 2, 2025 at 01:02:47 PM GMT+2, Mira Ariel via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
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Thank you very much, Christian (<span style="color:rgb(179, 106, 226);">Please see below</span>). </div>
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I think I have to extend my question to an etymological association of scalar quantifiers (exemplified below) with:</div>
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Determiners (indefinite markers and pronouns)</div>
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in addition to what I listed in my original query, namely:</div>
<ol start="1" style="direction:ltr;text-align:left;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;padding-left:0px;list-style-type:decimal;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);"><li style="font-family:Aptos, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);direction:ltr;margin:0in 0in 0in 0.5in;">
Nominals explicitly denoting part of a whole, e.g., Hebrew <i>xelek </i>‘part (of)’. (<b>vs. ‘all’</b>)</li><li style="font-family:Aptos, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);direction:ltr;margin:0in 0in 0in 0.5in;">
<div style="margin:0px;">a. Quantifiers denoting a smallish quantity, e.g, Hebrew
<i>kcat</i> ‘a little’. (<b>vs. ‘much’</b>)</div>
</li><ol start="1" style="direction:ltr;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;padding-left:0px;list-style-type:lower-alpha;"><ol start="1" style="direction:ltr;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;padding-left:0px;list-style-type:lower-roman;"><ol start="1" style="direction:ltr;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;padding-left:0px;list-style-type:decimal;"><ol start="1" style="direction:ltr;margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;padding-left:0px;list-style-type:lower-alpha;"><li style="font-family:Aptos, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div style="margin:0px;"> b. Quantifiers denoting ‘a number of’, e.g., Hebrew
<i>kama, </i>French <i>quelques(uns) </i>(<b>vs. ‘many’</b>)</div>
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Adjectives denoting an unidentified subset, ‘certain’, e.g., Fr <i>certains (de)</i> <b>(vs. 'others’</b>).</li><li style="font-family:Aptos, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);direction:ltr;margin:0in 0in 0in 0.5in;">
Existential construction ‘exist’, e.g, Chinese <i>Yǒude shíhòu </i>‘sometimes’, lit. ‘there are times’ (<b>vs. 'others'</b>).</li></ol>
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Best,</div>
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Mira</div>
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<div dir="ltr" id="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031divRplyFwdMsg"><span style="font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 2, 2025 12:25 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Weak scalar quantifiers (some)</span>
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<p>Dear Mira,</p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof">first, a request for conceptual clarification. You seem to be contrasting 'some' as a scalar quantifier to 'some' as a determiner. Is the latter the same as an indefinite pronoun?</p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><span style="color:rgb(179, 106, 226);">Both can be pronominal, and my question doesn't care about this distinction:</span></p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><span style="color:rgb(179, 106, 226);">Determiner: A: Would you like to buy
<b>some</b> apples?</span></p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><span style="color:rgb(179, 106, 226);"> B: Yes, can I have
<b>some</b>?</span></p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><span style="color:rgb(179, 106, 226);">Scalar Quan: A: Would you like all the apples?</span></p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><span style="color:rgb(179, 106, 226);"> B1: I'd like
<b>some</b> of them.</span></p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><span style="color:rgb(179, 106, 226);"> B2:
</span><span style="font-family:Aptos, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(179, 106, 226);">I'd like
<b>some</b>.</span></p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Aptos, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(179, 106, 226);">The main (almost absolute difference) is stress. Scalar quantifier is overwhelmingly
stressed, determiner <i>some </i>isn't. Also, scalar quantifier favors subject (or topic position), while determiner
<i>some </i>favors direct object position (data based on Santa Barbara Corpus, cited in a paper recently submitted).</span></p>
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<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Aptos, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(179, 106, 226);">Semantically/pragmatically: scalar quantifier
<i>some</i> profiles an upper-bounded quantity ('less than all'). Determiner <i>some
</i>is oblivious to this question.</span></p>
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<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><span style="font-family:Aptos, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(88, 237, 222);"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"> Such forms as Engl. <i>some</i>, Latin <i>aliquot</i> etc. etc. are commonly used both as determiners and as pronouns s.s. (i.e., representing an NP). And if so, do you have a criterion to distinguish the quantifier from the pronoun?
I am asking because they seem to be coded by the same forms and to have the same distribution in several languages.</p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof">Now, the standard German forms for the quantifier are <i>
einige</i> and <i>etliche</i>. The etymological dictionary of German (<a shape="rect" id="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031OWA6cfddb9c-6724-c938-5c9d-c33ed72a413e" href="https://www.dwds.de/d/wb-etymwb" style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;" class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031x_moz-txt-link-freetext ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031OWAAutoLink" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.dwds.de/d/wb-etymwb</a>)
categorizes both as indefinite pronouns. </p>
<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><span style="color:rgb(179, 106, 226);">Would you use these forms in the counterpart of the scalar quantifier examples above? In both?</span></p>
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<p class="ydpf628b26cyiv6312601031elementToProof"><i>Einige</i> is an adjectival derivation in <i>-ig</i> of the base
<i>ein</i> 'one'. Interestingly, the derivation allows the word to be plural despite the meaning of its base, which reminds one of the grammaticalization fate of
<i>uno/unos</i> in Spanish. <i>Etliche</i> comprises a formative <i>et-</i> of unclear indefinite function and -- to my mind more plausibly than an adjectival derivation in
<i>-lich</i> -- a reduced form of the indefinite pronoun <i>welche</i> 'some' (< 'which'). So these German quantifiers are clearly based on indefinite forms.</p>
<p>A better year to everybody,</p>
<p>Christian</p>
<div>--</div>
<p>Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br clear="none">
Rudolfstr. 4<br clear="none">
99092 Erfurt<br clear="none">
Deutschland</p>
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