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Thank you very much, Christian (<span style="color: rgb(179, 106, 226);">Please see below</span>). </div>
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I think I have to extend my question to an etymological association of scalar quantifiers (exemplified below) with:</div>
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Determiners (indefinite markers and pronouns)</div>
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in addition to what I listed in my original query, namely:</div>
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Nominals explicitly denoting part of a whole, e.g., Hebrew <i>xelek </i>‘part (of)’. (<b>vs. ‘all’</b>)</li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); direction: ltr; margin: 0in 0in 0in 0.5in;">
<div style="margin: 0px;">a. Quantifiers denoting a smallish quantity, e.g, Hebrew
<i>kcat</i> ‘a little’. (<b>vs. ‘much’</b>)</div>
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<div style="margin: 0px;"> b. Quantifiers denoting ‘a number of’, e.g., Hebrew
<i>kama, </i>French <i>quelques(uns) </i>(<b>vs. ‘many’</b>)</div>
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Adjectives denoting an unidentified subset, ‘certain’, e.g., Fr <i>certains (de)</i> <b>(vs. 'others’</b>).</li><li style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); direction: ltr; margin: 0in 0in 0in 0.5in;">
Existential construction ‘exist’, e.g, Chinese <i>Yǒude shíhòu </i>‘sometimes’, lit. ‘there are times’ (<b>vs. 'others'</b>).</li></ol>
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Best,</div>
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Mira</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 2, 2025 12:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Weak scalar quantifiers (some)</span>
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<p>Dear Mira,</p>
<p class="elementToProof">first, a request for conceptual clarification. You seem to be contrasting 'some' as a scalar quantifier to 'some' as a determiner. Is the latter the same as an indefinite pronoun?</p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="color: rgb(179, 106, 226);">Both can be pronominal, and my question doesn't care about this distinction:</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="color: rgb(179, 106, 226);">Determiner: A: Would you like to buy
<b>some</b> apples?</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="color: rgb(179, 106, 226);"> B: Yes, can I have
<b>some</b>?</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="color: rgb(179, 106, 226);">Scalar Quan: A: Would you like all the apples?</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="color: rgb(179, 106, 226);"> B1: I'd like
<b>some</b> of them.</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="color: rgb(179, 106, 226);"> B2:
</span><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(179, 106, 226);">I'd like
<b>some</b>.</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(179, 106, 226);">The main (almost absolute difference) is stress. Scalar quantifier is overwhelmingly
stressed, determiner <i>some </i>isn't. Also, scalar quantifier favors subject (or topic position), while determiner
<i>some </i>favors direct object position (data based on Santa Barbara Corpus, cited in a paper recently submitted).</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(179, 106, 226);"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(179, 106, 226);">Semantically/pragmatically: scalar quantifier
<i>some</i> profiles an upper-bounded quantity ('less than all'). Determiner <i>some
</i>is oblivious to this question.</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(88, 237, 222);"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(88, 237, 222);"> </span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"> Such forms as Engl. <i>some</i>, Latin <i>aliquot</i> etc. etc. are commonly used both as determiners and as pronouns s.s. (i.e., representing an NP). And if so, do you have a criterion to distinguish the quantifier from the pronoun?
I am asking because they seem to be coded by the same forms and to have the same distribution in several languages.</p>
<p class="elementToProof">Now, the standard German forms for the quantifier are <i>
einige</i> and <i>etliche</i>. The etymological dictionary of German (<a href="https://www.dwds.de/d/wb-etymwb" id="OWA6cfddb9c-6724-c938-5c9d-c33ed72a413e" class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext OWAAutoLink" data-auth="NotApplicable" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">https://www.dwds.de/d/wb-etymwb</a>)
categorizes both as indefinite pronouns. </p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="color: rgb(179, 106, 226);">Would you use these forms in the counterpart of the scalar quantifier examples above? In both?</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><span style="color: rgb(88, 237, 222);"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="elementToProof"><i>Einige</i> is an adjectival derivation in <i>-ig</i> of the base
<i>ein</i> 'one'. Interestingly, the derivation allows the word to be plural despite the meaning of its base, which reminds one of the grammaticalization fate of
<i>uno/unos</i> in Spanish. <i>Etliche</i> comprises a formative <i>et-</i> of unclear indefinite function and -- to my mind more plausibly than an adjectival derivation in
<i>-lich</i> -- a reduced form of the indefinite pronoun <i>welche</i> 'some' (< 'which'). So these German quantifiers are clearly based on indefinite forms.</p>
<p>A better year to everybody,</p>
<p>Christian</p>
<div>--</div>
<p>Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
Deutschland</p>
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