<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Hi Bernat,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Love this topic. Lots to say here from New Guinea, that is, as filtered thru my pov as a fieldworker there. A few things for you:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">In Chini there are at least three sets of native terms used in reference to grammar and/or the nature of language. One set translates roughly as 'dark/deep' vs 'light (i.e. weight-wise), these are used to describe phonetics in Chini (and are applied to Chini peoples' impressions of other languages). Briefly, dark/deep refers to implosives and sounds, syllables produced with breathy or laryngealized phonation. "Light" is everything else, plosives, egressive airflow, normal phonation.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">The other terms are spatial metaphors. 'High/above' speech can refer either a) to words/syllables with pitch accent or b) the parts of a language that are easily learnable, especially basic vocabulary (nouns). Then there's 'inside' (navt) speech, that's the stuff you have to have deeper local familiarity to be able to know. Regarding grammatical detail, specialized vocab, Chini people will say the grammar of their language has "corners". The larger metaphor here presents the language in terms of a Melanesian string bag (bilum), the knit bags that Papua New Guineans carry around wherever they go. There's more to say here socially, the metaphor goes pretty deep and is an important part of how people see and use their language. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">There is furthermore a second inside dimension, the 'true inner part' or core (yat) of language, which in Chini society (where the institution has not been uprooted by missionization) is based in the men's cult (amumhhu/T.P. haus tambaran). The local animistic belief is that (male) ability to effectively harness the power of language (for myriad purposes, social and metaphysical) is attained in the men's cult, and that only those who have gone through male ritual initiation, can gain access to the core of linguistic knowledge, both in terms of the ability to properly use, and to truly understand, linguistic meaning. (I don't know about any relationship between language and female initiation, I'm afraid.) Older Chini men will sometimes criticize younger men, telling them their speech has no "yat" (meaning), a surface judgment about their manner of speech but also more than that. Talking too loudly, too much idle and superfluous chit-chat, eschewal of the vernacular (for the sake of Tok Pisin), and (especially) failures to grasp/heed others' talk, among other negatively valued linguistic practices, are ultimately blamed on (esp., younger guys') lack of participation in the men's cult.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Importantly, because of widespread language shift to Tok Pisin, familiarity with Tok Pisin has led to differing conceptions of language, Tok Pisin vs the vernacular, in many communities. Kulick (1992) discusses this from various angles and there are some other discussions out there, mostly by anthers. Having worked in two different places in PNG I would say that there is one widespread way in which people see the divergent nature of Tok Pisin vs their own vernacular, is again in terms of spatial metaphor. Whereas the vernaculars are conceptualized in multidimensional terms like I describe above, Tok Pisin is construed as a straight line, it promises direct communication, the relaying of a message. ('tok pisin' is also used as a noun in Tok Pisin, to mean, 'message', and 'tok ples' ("village speech" aka the vernacular) is used as a verb in Tok Pisin, to mean 'to speak in a concealed/obscure/secretive way'. In particular where directives are concerned, Tok Pisin's perceived clarity and directness, comes into play in a big way. (Kulick for instance writes about how in Gapun in the 1980s, child directed speech was characterized by caregivers' clear preference for Tok Pisin as opposed to vernacular directives).<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Joseph</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 28, 2024 at 10:00 PM <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Traditional view of language and grammar in indigenous<br>
societies (Bernat Bardagil Mas)<br>
2. Re: Traditional view of language and grammar in indigenous<br>
societies (Egor Kashkin)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 15:09:18 +0000<br>
From: Bernat Bardagil Mas <<a href="mailto:bernat.bardagil@ugent.be" target="_blank">bernat.bardagil@ugent.be</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] Traditional view of language and grammar in<br>
indigenous societies<br>
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Dear all,<br>
<br>
As anyone working closely with indigenous languages and cultures of the Americas, we have seen multiple instances of the awareness that indigenous peoples have of everything that surrounds them, with detailed accounts and explanations ranging from social aspects to natural or supernatural phenomena.<br>
<br>
We have come to wonder whether, and how frequently, this type of reflection is attested also for language ? not so much the origin of language, but its structure and nature. Have any of you encountered anything similar to this notion among indigenous communities, regarding the structure of their own language? Or, are you aware of any mentions of something that could correspond to traces of this type of indigenous linguistic or grammatical knowledge?<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
<br>
Bernat Bardagil i Mas & Sara Larios i Ongay<br>
<br>
<br>
- -<br>
Bernat Bardagil<br>
Postdoctoral researcher<br>
Department of Linguistics, Ghent University<br>
<a href="http://research.flw.ugent.be/en/bernat.bardagil" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">research.flw.ugent.be/en/bernat.bardagil</a><<a href="https://research.flw.ugent.be/en/bernat.bardagil" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://research.flw.ugent.be/en/bernat.bardagil</a>><br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:04:32 +0300<br>
From: Egor Kashkin <<a href="mailto:egorka1988@gmail.com" target="_blank">egorka1988@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Bernat Bardagil Mas <<a href="mailto:bernat.bardagil@ugent.be" target="_blank">bernat.bardagil@ugent.be</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Traditional view of language and grammar in<br>
indigenous societies<br>
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<br>
Dear Bernat,<br>
<br>
I have fieldwork experience with the dialects of some Uralic languages<br>
in Russia. Maybe the following observations are of interest for you:<br>
<br>
-- My consultants usually have some knowledge of the standard language<br>
(e.g. they learnt it at school, follow the mass media etc.), and there<br>
may be stereotypes about some structural patterns, e.g. basic word<br>
order. Or as one of my Hill Mari consultants (a school teacher) told<br>
me: "Whatever stands in Russian sits in Hill Mari". She meant that in<br>
Russian the verb 'stand' has a wide range of uses in the posture<br>
domain, whereas in Hill Mari the posture predicate with the widest use<br>
is 'sit'. They are often translational equivalents to each other, but<br>
in fact not in 100% of cases.<br>
<br>
-- Of course, consultants often hypothesize about the difference<br>
between quasi-synonymous forms or structures. Sometimes this gives a<br>
researcher some hints, sometimes not (e.g. stereotypical terms such as<br>
"present tense" or "past tense" can be used as a memory from school,<br>
but this may contradict both the data and the linguistically correct<br>
use of such terms).<br>
<br>
-- They often notice some differences between their dialect and the<br>
standard language, or between different dialects, mainly in phonetics<br>
or in the lexicon ("when we pronounce ?, in the standard language<br>
there is i?"). Probably this can mark whether a speaker is "ours" or<br>
"not ours". At the same time one should be careful with such<br>
statements, as they can be made in order to find a reasonable (albeit<br>
false) explanation for ungrammatical stimuli during elicitation. For<br>
example, speakers of Izhma Komi sometimes comment on ungrammatical<br>
sentences by saying that "it is possible in Standard Komi" (or, as<br>
they say, "??? ? ???? ???? ???????" -- "People can say so in the Komi<br>
Soviet Republic"), but in fact it is not.<br>
<br>
-- Some consultants have judgements about the contact-induced nature<br>
of some linguistic phenomena. For example, in Udmurt there are complex<br>
predicates which probably replicate a Turkic pattern. One of my<br>
consultants (who works as a dentist) told me that such constructions<br>
copy Tatar structures and gave some parallel examples from Tatar (many<br>
Udmurt speakers in this area speak or at least understand Tatar).<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Egor Kashkin<br>
<br>
??, 27 ???. 2024??. ? 18:09, Bernat Bardagil Mas via Lingtyp<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<br>
><br>
> Dear all,<br>
><br>
> As anyone working closely with indigenous languages and cultures of the Americas, we have seen multiple instances of the awareness that indigenous peoples have of everything that surrounds them, with detailed accounts and explanations ranging from social aspects to natural or supernatural phenomena.<br>
><br>
> We have come to wonder whether, and how frequently, this type of reflection is attested also for language ? not so much the origin of language, but its structure and nature. Have any of you encountered anything similar to this notion among indigenous communities, regarding the structure of their own language? Or, are you aware of any mentions of something that could correspond to traces of this type of indigenous linguistic or grammatical knowledge?<br>
><br>
> Thank you,<br>
><br>
> Bernat Bardagil i Mas & Sara Larios i Ongay<br>
><br>
><br>
> - -<br>
> Bernat Bardagil<br>
> Postdoctoral researcher<br>
> Department of Linguistics, Ghent University<br>
> <a href="http://research.flw.ugent.be/en/bernat.bardagil" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">research.flw.ugent.be/en/bernat.bardagil</a><br>
><br>
><br>
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</blockquote></div></div>