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Dear all, dear Guillaume,
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<div class="">Thanks for your input on the alleged kin term universal. Guillaume is completely right in what he writes about its claim – mea culpa, I should have made this clearer from the start. </div>
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<div class="">I would be interested in getting more information on whether it holds – or whether there are examples going in the direction of Östen’s “guess”.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
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<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Masha</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
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<div class="">
<div><br class="">
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<div class="">On Feb 1, 2025, at 17:43, Guillaume Jacques via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Dear all,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Concerning the universal on kinship terms that Masha was mentioning, the claim is not that no language can colexify Father (F) and Mother's Brother (MB), but rather that
<b class="">if</b> F=MB <b class="">then</b> F=MB=FB (Father's Brother), in other words you don't have a language colexifying F and MB and dislexifying FB from them (F=MB≠FB). I think that this is a very robust universal, which brings important evidence for
the general principles of the evolution of kinship systems. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best wishes,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Guillaume</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 1 févr. 2025 à 17:19, Östen Dahl via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> a écrit :<br class="">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class="">Dear all,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class="">With regard to the claim that 'father' and 'mother's brother' cannot be colexified, consider the following quotation from the Wikipedia article on "Matrilineality":<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class="">"While a mother normally takes care of her own children in all cultures, in some matrilineal cultures an "uncle-father" will take care of his nieces and nephews instead: in other words
*social fathers* here are uncles."<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class="">That is, fathers and maternal uncles are similar in that they can both play the role of "social fathers"; it is not unthinkable that a language spoken in a society on the borderline between
patrilineality and matrilineality will lexify the concept "social father". What this shows is that the criterion of cognitive complexity can lead you in the wrong direction. In fact, kinship terms sometimes unite relationships which are tricky to give a common
definition, such as "brother-in-law" in English.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
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<li class="m_-6348922931168180678MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class="">Östen<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Från:</span></b><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" class="">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b class="">För </b>Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp<br class="">
<b class="">Skickat:</b> den 1 februari 2025 16:40<br class="">
<b class="">Till:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" class="">
lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br class="">
<b class="">Ämne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Universal constraints on lexicalisation<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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<p class="">Dear Masha and others,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<p class="">In addition to "cognitive complexity", one may also consider frequency of use as constraining lexification.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<p class="">For example, 'female wolf' is not more cognitively complex than 'female horse' (English
<i class="">mare</i>, contrasting with <i class="">stallion</i>), but gender/sex is less commonly mentioned in connection with wild animals than with domestic animals, so English does not dislexify 'male wolf' and 'female wolf'.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<p class="">In my 2023 <i class="">Frontiers</i> paper, I suggested that some important lexification tendencies can be explained with reference to root length possibilities: Roots are typically 1-2 syllables long, so when a meaning is not frequent enough, it
needs more syllables and hence multiple morphs:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div style="margin-left:24pt" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Haspelmath, Martin. 2023. Coexpression and synexpression patterns across languages: Comparative concepts and possible explanations.
<i class="">Frontiers in Psychology</i> 14. (doi:<a href="https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2023.1236853" target="_blank" class="">https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2023.1236853</a>)<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="">(The paper also cites David Gil's 1992 paper.)<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<p class="">Incidentally, it seems that "lexification" is clearer than "lexicalization", because the latter is used in multiple meanings (see my 2024 paper, §7:
<a href="https://www.peren-revues.fr/lexique/1737" target="_blank" class="">https://www.peren-revues.fr/lexique/1737</a>).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<p class="">Best,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<p class="">Martin<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<p class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">On 01.02.25 12:40, David Gil via Lingtyp wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Masha,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Some examples from the semantic domain of quantification can be found here:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="m_-6348922931168180678gmail-referencest" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:27pt;text-align:justify">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" class="">Gil, David (1992) "Scopal Quantifiers: Some Universals of Lexical Effability", in M. Kefer and J. van der Auwera eds.,
<i class="">Meaning and Grammar, Cross-Linguistic Perspectives</i>, Mouton de Gruyter, Berlin, 303-345.</span><span style="font-family:Times,serif" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">David<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="m_-6348922931168180678gmail-referencest" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:27pt;text-align:justify">
<span style="font-family:Times,serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Feb 1, 2025 at 5:29<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class=""> </span>PM Maria Koptjevskaja Tamm via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" class="">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all, <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am involved in a handbook chapter in which I would like to give a few examples of suggested universal constraints on lexicalisation, e.g., those primarily concerning meanings that should not be expressible in a word (a stem, root or whatever),
preferably not from the domain of colour terms. To give an example, Rappaport Hovav and Levin (2010) argue that no verb encodes both manner and result simultaneously, which has been contested by Beavers and Koontz-Garbodens.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Or, a definition of a term covering both ‘father’ and ‘mother’s brother’ would be cognitively very complex since it will require disjunction (‘father’ or ‘mother’s brother’, cf. ‘male relative of one’s patriline’ for ‘father’ and ‘father’s
brother’) (Evans 2001) – I don’t know if this constraint still holds.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Many thanks and all the best,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Masha<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="" class="">Prof. Maria Koptjevskaja Tamm<br class="">
Dept. of linguistics, Stockholm university, 106 91, Stockholm, Sweden<br class="">
Editor-in-chief of “Linguistic Typology”<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="" class="">President-Elect of Societas Linguistic Europaea<br class="">
<a href="http://www.ling.su.se/tamm" target="_blank" class="">www.ling.su.se/tamm</a><br class="">
<a href="mailto:tamm@ling.su.se" target="_blank" class="">tamm@ling.su.se</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br class="">
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<span class="m_-6348922931168180678gmailsignatureprefix">-- </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<pre class="">David Gil<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Senior Scientist (Associate)<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Email: <a href="mailto:dapiiiiit@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">dapiiiiit@gmail.com</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br class="">
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<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
<pre class="">_______________________________________________<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
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<pre class="">-- <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Martin Haspelmath<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">Deutscher Platz 6<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class="">D-04103 Leipzig<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
<pre class=""><a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" target="_blank" class="">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre>
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<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br class="">
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<div class="">Guillaume Jacques</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">Directeur de recherches<br class="">
CNRS (CRLAO) - EPHE- INALCO <br class="">
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<div class=""><a href="http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques" target="_blank" class="">https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295</a></div>
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Prof. Maria Koptjevskaja Tamm<br class="">
Dept. of linguistics, Stockholm university, 106 91, Stockholm, Sweden<br class="">
Editor-in-chief of “Linguistic Typology”</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
President-Elect of Societas Linguistic Europaea<br class="">
<a href="http://www.ling.su.se/tamm" class="">www.ling.su.se/tamm</a><br class="">
tamm@ling.su.se<br class="">
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