<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Sergey,</div><div><br></div><div>Maltese has passives with
ġie
"come" plus the participle; they constitute a calque of Italian venire passives, with no plausible Arabic-internal source (see e.g. <a href="https://langsci-press.org/catalog/view/235/1815/1840-1">https://langsci-press.org/catalog/view/235/1815/1840-1</a> ).</div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div>Lameen Souag</div><div><br></div><div>LACITO (CNRS - Sorbonne Nouvelle - INALCO)</div><div><a href="https://lameensouag.wordpress.com/">https://lameensouag.wordpress.com/</a></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 1:33 PM <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: COME-passives (Paolo Ramat)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 16:36:35 +0100<br>
From: Paolo Ramat <<a href="mailto:paoram@unipv.it" target="_blank">paoram@unipv.it</a>><br>
To: Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>><br>
Cc: Timur Maisak <<a href="mailto:timur.maisak@gmail.com" target="_blank">timur.maisak@gmail.com</a>>,<br>
"<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] COME-passives<br>
Message-ID:<br>
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<br>
Dear Cat,<br>
I'm not a native speaker of Bavarian. My informations about the<br>
*kommen*-passiv<br>
derive from Willi Mayerthaler's article quoted in my previous mail.<br>
Mayerthaler was born in Somerberg, Landkr. Rosenheim , Bezirk Oberbayern.<br>
Thus, he was a native speaker of (Ober-)Bavarian. You may find the exact<br>
reference concerning Willi's article in the paper Andrea Sans? attached to<br>
his mail of Febr. 23, where the Authors write " Passive constructions<br>
formed with the same building blocks as the Italian construction (?come? +<br>
past participle) are [...] known from a handful of languages. For instance,<br>
they are quite widespread in various circum-Alpine Romance and German<br>
varieties: Surselvan and other Rhaeto-Romance varieties (Haiman & Beninc?<br>
1992; Ebneter 1994); Cimbrian (Schweizer 2008: 844?845; Tyroller 2003:122);<br>
Bavarian (Wiesinger 1989); Swiss German (Bucheli Berger 2005);<br>
Walserdialects in Switzerland and Italy (Gurinerdeutsch, cf. Russ 2002:<br>
115; Pomatter-titsch, cf. Dal Negro 2004: 96; Gressoney Walser, cf. Z?rrer<br>
1982: 93)".<br>
Best,<br>
Paolo<br>
<br>
Prof. Dr., Dr.h.c. Paolo Ramat<br>
Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br>
'Academia Europaea'<br>
'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member<br>
Universit? di Pavia (retired)<br>
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)<br>
<br>
piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia<br>
##39 0382 27027<br>
347 044 98 44<br>
<br>
<br>
Il giorno lun 24 feb 2025 alle ore 11:53 Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>> ha<br>
scritto:<br>
<br>
> Interesting, in my variety of Bavarian, this is ungrammatical, and I<br>
> don't think I've ever heard anyone say it, either. Could you tell me<br>
> what varieties of Bavarian specifically use this construction, or give<br>
> me the title of your article? Thank you.<br>
><br>
> In any case, if I'm already writing this email, I thought I'd mention<br>
> the German "bekommen" passive construction, which is syntactically<br>
> similar to the "get" passive in English (They cut my hair. I got my hair<br>
> cut.), with "bekommen" being etymologically derived from "kommen"<br>
> (though now lexicalized).<br>
><br>
> Warmest,<br>
> ---<br>
> Cat Butz (she)<br>
> HHU D?sseldorf<br>
> General Linguistics<br>
><br>
><br>
> Am 23/02/2025 17:10, schrieb Paolo Ramat via Lingtyp:<br>
> > In Bavarian German you may say<br>
> > (1) _D? kummt de nei(e) Schul gebaut_<br>
> > ?Hier wird die neue Schule gebaut?,<br>
> > probably a loan from Ital. _Qui viene costruita la nuova scuola_, or<br>
> > from Rhaeto-Romance _Co^ vein fabricheda la scuola nuova_<br>
> > See Ramat in "Lg Sciences" 20 (3) , 1998: 227ff. (with reference to<br>
> > Mayerthaler & Mayerthaler 1990).<br>
> ><br>
> > Best,<br>
> > Paolo Ramat<br>
> ><br>
> > Il giorno dom 23 feb 2025 alle ore 13:56 Timur Maisak via Lingtyp<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> ha scritto:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Sure, see e.g. Maisak 2005 [1] or Schulze 2015 [2].<br>
> >><br>
> >> Best,<br>
> >> Timur Maisak<br>
> >><br>
> >> ??, 23 ????. 2025??. ? 15:42, Sergey Loesov via Lingtyp<br>
> >> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> Dear colleagues,<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Are you aware of COME-passives in any of the world?s languages?<br>
> >>> In Kurmanji, a North-West Iranian language, the passive voice is<br>
> >>> formed using the verb _hatin_ (?to come?), which is fully<br>
> >>> conjugated for all TAM forms, followed by the infinitive. This<br>
> >>> construction appears to be diachronically young, because Kurmanji<br>
> >>> has a split ergative alignment. Its preterit base (from which the<br>
> >>> infinitive seems to be formed secondarily) is a reflex of the _PIU<br>
> >>> resultative participle in -ta_, and the choice between the<br>
> >>> ergative and the absolutive depends entirely on the inherent<br>
> >>> transitivity of the verb.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Thank you very much,<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Sergey _______________________________________________<br>
> >>> Lingtyp mailing list<br>
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> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Links:<br>
> > ------<br>
> > [1] <a href="https://www.academia.edu/35547425/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.academia.edu/35547425/</a><br>
> > [2] <a href="https://www.academia.edu/21211924/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.academia.edu/21211924/</a><br>
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