<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">In case you have not watched this yet: <yt-formatted-string force-default-style="" class="style-scope ytd-watch-metadata" title="Science is in trouble and it worries me." style="font-weight: bold; caret-color: rgb(15, 15, 15); color: rgb(15, 15, 15);">Science is in trouble and it worries me,</yt-formatted-string><span style="caret-color: rgb(15, 15, 15); color: rgb(15, 15, 15);"><yt-formatted-string force-default-style="" class="style-scope ytd-watch-metadata" title="Science is in trouble and it worries me." style="font-weight: bold;"> </yt-formatted-string><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtxjatbVb7M">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtxjatbVb7M</a> </span></span></div><div><span style="caret-color: rgb(15, 15, 15); color: rgb(15, 15, 15); font-size: 14px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">This one is also highly relevant:<b> <yt-formatted-string force-default-style="" class="style-scope ytd-watch-metadata" title="I was asked to keep this confidential" style="caret-color: rgb(15, 15, 15); color: rgb(15, 15, 15);">I was asked to keep this confidential,</yt-formatted-string></b><span style="caret-color: rgb(15, 15, 15); color: rgb(15, 15, 15);"> </span><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shFUDPqVmTg" style="caret-color: rgb(15, 15, 15);">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shFUDPqVmTg</a><span style="caret-color: rgb(15, 15, 15); color: rgb(15, 15, 15);"> </span></span></div><div><span style="caret-color: rgb(15, 15, 15); color: rgb(15, 15, 15); font-size: 14px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><b>About the author:</b> Sabine Hossenfelder has a PhD in physics. She is author of the books "Lost in Math: How Beauty Leads Physics Astray" (Basic Books, 2018) and "Existential Physics: A Scientist's Guide to Life's Biggest Questions" (Viking, 2022); and at: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Hossenfelder">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine_Hossenfelder</a> </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Best, </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Stela</span></div><div><br></div>
<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 01.04.2025, at 10:24, PONSONNET Maia via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif, EmojiFont, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", NotoColorEmoji, "Segoe UI Symbol", "Android Emoji", EmojiSymbols;"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Dear Patrick, dear all, </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">I agree that it is useful to question our activities, and that it must be done constructively. </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">One first question I'd have for you Patrick (and others as well): are your criticisms addressed to linguistics specifically, or would they also apply to other scientific disciplines? Social sciences and humanities? Hard sciences? </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Cheers and thanks for the debate, Maïa </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><br></div><div id="Signature"><div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;">Maïa Ponsonnet</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;">Chargée de Recherche HDR @ CNRS </span><span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;">Dynamique Du Langage</span></div><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 10.6667px;"></span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; 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font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;"></span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;">Co-rédactrice en chef du <i>Journal de la Société des Océanistes</i></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;"><a href="https://journals.openedition.org/jso/" class="OWAAutoLink" id="LPNoLP">https://journals.openedition.org/jso/</a><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;"><i><span id="ms-rterangepaste-start"></span></i><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;">Membre du Comité d'Ethique de la Recherche, Université de Lyon</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-style: italic; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;"><a href="https://www.universite-lyon.fr/recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche-245561.kjsp" class="OWAAutoLink" id="LPNoLP"></a></span></div><a href="https://tinyurl.com/cerunivdelyon" class="OWAAutoLink" id="LPNoLP">https://tinyurl.com/cerunivdelyon</a><div style="font-style: italic;"><br></div><i><span id="ms-rterangepaste-end"></span></i><br></span></div><br><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></div><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;"></span></p></div></div><br><br><div style=""><hr tabindex="-1" style="display: inline-block; width: 1241.65625px;"><div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;"><b>De :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> de la part de Patrik Austin via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br><b>Envoyé :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>mardi 1 avril 2025 09:51<br><b>À :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><b>Objet :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Lingtyp] A plea for productive & respectful rhetoric</font><div> </div></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15.693334px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">Yes, let us discuss it constructively. What is the problem in linguistics that led to broken research, in your opinion?</p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15.693334px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15.693334px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">Am 31/03/2025 00:07, schrieb Adam Singerman via Lingtyp:<br>> I am writing in response to Patrik Austin's message to LingTyp from<br>> Tuesday, March 25th, in which several different research traditions<br>> were disparaged using rhetoric that is at best simply not collegial<br>> and at worst counterproductive to our collective efforts as linguists.<br>> Patrik's message contained several comments which I think need to be<br>> called out, since if we allow this kind of rhetoric to take hold on<br>> LingTyp (or in our scholarly spaces in general) we will be unable to<br>> make progress towards our overall goal as linguists, which is to<br>> understand individual languages as well as capitalized Language in all<br>> its richness and complexity.<br>><br>> I should say at the outset that I have been trained primarily in<br>> formal analysis & theory (generative syntax, generative phonology,<br>> Distributed Morphology) and while I agree with many of the goals of<br>> formal analysis & theory, I often find diachronic explanations for<br>> synchronic patterns to be more convincing and satisfying than<br>> formalist ones. (I enjoy teaching historical linguistics much more<br>> than I enjoy teaching syntactic analysis, for example.) So please do<br>> not think that I am writing this message because I am a practicioner<br>> of any particular formalist school of thought. On the contrary, I<br>> think that we ned to approach questions from different angles using<br>> the analytic tools provided by different schools of thought.<br>><br>> Here are two comments from Patrik's message which bothered me:<br>> (1) "A summary shows that syntactic typology is BS, to put it politely"<br>> (2) "Figure 3... shows how not just syntactic typology but also<br>> Generative Grammar is BS, which everyone of course always knew"<br>><br>> Both "syntactic typology" and "Generative Grammar" are *scientific<br>> research programs* in the sense of Lakatos. Hundreds if not thousands<br>> of linguists have made contributions to each of these research<br>> programs over the course of many, many decades, and some linguists<br>> have worked in both of these programs. In my experience the best<br>> linguists are ones who recognize that we will need formal AND<br>> functional explanations; it is an open question whether a given<br>> phenomenon is best explained formally or functionally, which is where<br>> a lot of the most interesting debate happens. Now, it is definitely<br>> the case that many individual *hypotheses* that have been formulated<br>> within the research program known as syntactic typology, just as it is<br>> surely the case that many individual *hypotheses* formulated within<br>> the research program of formal analysis/theory ("Generative Grammar")<br>> are false. This is how science progresses: hypotheses are formulated,<br>> are tested, and are falsified, and we discard the falsified ones. But<br>> to say that all of syntactic typology and all of Generative Grammar<br>> are BS is far too coarse and far too negative a judgment. Both of<br>> these research programs contain valuable insights, and to call them<br>> both bull**** is to throw out the baby with the bathwater.<br>><br>> Finally, I want to respond to the following comment:<br>> (3) "linguistics is a farce, a status game, a broken system, and<br>> people doing it are hostages to the system with little will of their<br>> own. It is a sad, pathetic world, and no one can fix it because all<br>> participants are economically and emotionally tied to it."<br>><br>> Once we make this kind of assertion, which disparages not only the<br>> research being done but also the people who do the research, we leave<br>> the territory of collegial, civil scientific discourse and enter a<br>> world of ad hominem attacks.<br>><br>> I do think it is fair for someone to say that, in their opinion, too<br>> many resources (jobs, grants, PhD scholarships, publications in top<br>> journals, etc) have been devoted to a particular school of linguistics<br>> over another, and that our entire field would do better if there were<br>> to be more balance between the subfields. (For example, I think that<br>> more departments in the US should have historical linguists on<br>> faculty, and I think that all graduate students being trained in<br>> synchronic phonology, morphology, syntax, semantics, etc should have<br>> to take at least one semester of historical linguistics, too.) But to<br>> say that our entire field is "a farce, a status game, a broken system"<br>> ? and that all the researchers who work within this field are<br>> "hostages" who lack free will ? is not respectful or productive.<br>><br>> Best,<br>> Adam<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Lingtyp mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>> <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(70, 120, 134);">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><br><br></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Lingtyp mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>