<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hi Sonja,<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Thanks
for your comments.<span> </span>Here are two examples
of my Yali data illustrating the results that I reported on:<span></span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-spara" style="line-height:normal;break-after:avoid;margin:0in;text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black;border:medium"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-spara" style="line-height:normal;break-after:avoid;margin:0in;text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black;border:medium"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">(1)<span> </span>[Picture
of clown drinking from a glass while reading a book]<span></span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-spara" style="line-height:normal;break-after:avoid;margin:0in;text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black;border:medium"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt"><span> </span>Puahun<span> </span>buku<span> </span>naruk<span></span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-spara" style="margin:0in 0in 3pt;line-height:normal;break-after:avoid;text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black;border:medium"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt"><span> </span>Clown<span> </span>book<span> </span>consume:<span style="font-variant:small-caps">real:prs.prog<span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span>84% of subjects accepted the
sentence as a true description of the picture<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-spara" style="line-height:normal;break-after:avoid;margin:0in;text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black;border:medium"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">(2)<span> </span>[Picture
of woman pushing a car]<span></span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-spara" style="line-height:normal;break-after:avoid;margin:0in;text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black;border:medium"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt"><span> </span>Mobil<span> </span>heap<span> </span>mealtil<span> </span>laruk<span></span></span></p>
<p class="gmail-spara" style="margin:0in 0in 3pt;line-height:normal;break-after:avoid;text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black;border:medium"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt"><span> </span>car<span> </span>woman<span> </span>push<span> </span>go:<span style="font-variant:small-caps">real:prs.prog</span><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span>79% of subjects accepted the
sentence as a true description of the picture<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In (1), buku 'book', which bears a peripheral
thematic role in the given situation, is encoded in the same way as a patient
would be; this is the Yali equivalent of the English 'The clown is drinking the
book', which speakers of English consistently judge as semantically
ill-formed.<span> </span>In (2), the relative order
of mobil 'car' and heap 'woman' is "reversed", without any formal signaling
of the reversal; this would be the equivalent of the English 'The car is
pushing the woman'.<span> </span>As you can see, both
sentences are accepted as felicitous descriptions of the relevant pictures.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(A couple of methodological
observations.<span> </span>First, the experiment
contains a number of distractors, in the form of picture-sentence pairs in
which the sentence cannot, under any circumstances, be construed as a
felicitous description of the picture.<span>
</span>Subjects who, for whatever reason, do not rule out the sentence as a
good description of the picture, are excluded from the analysis.<span> </span>Secondly, the results reported above were
obtained on site, from speakers in a Yali village, Elelim.<span> </span>In addition, I also ran the experiment on a
group of Yali students at the university in Manokwari and got very similar
results.)<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I have no explanation for the apparent discrepancy
between my results and your own impressions of Yali, which are based on years
of intensive and high-quality research. Perhaps, as you suggest, it is due, in part, to the fact
that the test sentences do indeed involve 3rd person arguments in the present
progressive.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">For various dialects of Indonesian, some of
my experimental results have also been met with surprise from some
quarters.<span> </span>My defense, in the case of Indonesian,
has been to point out that the constructions that are accepted by experimental
subjects while being rejected by experts on the language tend to be ones that also
show up in naturalistic corpora.<span> </span>I
wonder whether this might also be the case for Yali.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Best,<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">David<span></span></span></p>
<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, May 9, 2025 at 4:27 PM Sonja Riesberg via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<span lang="EN-GB">Dear David,</span><br>
<br>
<span lang="EN-GB">I am a bit puzzled with your results for
Yali.</span><br>
<br>
<span lang="EN-GB">Yali has obligatory subject marking on the verb,
and object marking for animate objects. Subjects are furthermore
optionally
case marked in unmarked SOV order, and obligatorily so in marked
OSV order.
Object marking distinguishes three semantic roles: theme,
beneficiary, and target.
So Yali is actually pretty explicit in telling you who is doing
what to whom
(see, e.g. Riesberg 2018; 2021; and for other Dani languages
Bromley 1981, Barclay
2008, and Etherington 2002)</span><br>
<br>
<span lang="EN-GB">Admittedly some of these distinctions can
be neutralised in certain contexts, i.e., third person acting on
third person
in the present (progressive), which is maybe how your experiment
was designed? </span><br>
<br>
<span lang="EN-GB">In any case I’d say Yali is pretty much the
opposite of what <span> </span>Vladimir
has been
asking for.</span><br>
<br>
<span lang="EN-GB">Best</span><br>
<span lang="EN-GB">Sonja</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt">Barclay, Peter.
2008. <i>A grammar of Western
Dani. </i>München:
Lincom Publishers.</span><br>
<span style="font-size:11pt">Bromley, H. Myron. 1981. A grammar of Lower
Grand
Valley Dani. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.</span><br>
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt">Etherington<span style="color:black">, Paul A. 2002. <i>Nggem morphology and Syntax. </i><span>Darwin:
Charles Darwin University</span> PhD dissertation.</span></span><br>
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt">Riesberg</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11pt">, Sonja. </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt">2018.
<span>Optional ergative,
agentivity, and
discourse prominence – Evidence from Yali (Trans-New Guinea). <i>Linguistic Typology </i>22.1.
17–50<i>. </i></span><a href="https://doi.org/10.1515/lingty-2018-0002" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(68,114,196)">https://doi.org/10.1515/lingty-2018-0002</span></a><span style="color:black">.</span></span><br>
<span style="font-size:11pt">Riesberg, Sonja.
2021.
Introduction to the Yali – English – German dictionary with a
short grammatical
sketch. In Sonja </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt">Riesberg, <span>in collaboration with Carmen
Dawuda, Lucas
Haiduck, Nikolaus P. Himmelmann, and Kurt Malcher (eds.),</span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt">
</span><i><span style="font-size:11pt">A Yali </span></i><span style="font-size:11pt">(<i>Angguruk</i>)
– <i>English – German
dictionary</i>, 1</span><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11pt">–49</span><span style="font-size:11pt">. Canberra:
Asia-Pacific Linguistics. <a href="https://shs.hal.science/halshs-03436264v1" target="_blank">https://shs.hal.science/halshs-03436264v1</a></span><br>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:6pt 0in 0.0001pt 13.7pt"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<br>
<br>
<div>Am 09.05.2025 um 06:51 schrieb David
Gil via Lingtyp:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Dear
Vladimir,<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">You
mentioned Riau Indonesian.<span> </span>While my early
writings on Riau Indonesian
apparently contributed to the impression that this language
was somehow
exceptional with respect to the absence of obligatory
thematic role encoding,
subsequent work suggests that it is anything but a
typological outlier in this
respect.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In
order to situate Riau
Indonesian in typological context, and to examine the degree
to which different
languages encode thematic roles such as agent, patient,
locative, instrumental
and so forth by various morphosyntactic devices such as word
order and
flagging, I have been conducting a cross-linguistic
psycholinguistic experiment,
details and preliminary results of which are presented in
Gil and Shen (2019:5-8)
and references therein.<span> </span>So far, the
experiment has been conducted on 69 languages.<span>
</span>The final results have yet to be written up and
published, but here are
some figures for a handful of languages from the 69-language
sample:<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">English<span>
</span>5.3%<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Hebrew<span>
</span>6.7%<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Standard
Japanese<span> </span>9.6%<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Standard
Indonesian<span> </span>22.8%<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Riau
Indonesian<span> </span>43.4%<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Minangkabau<span>
</span>65.0%<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Tikuna<span>
</span>75.8%<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Mursi<span>
</span>77.4%<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Yali<span>
</span>82.3%<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In the
above, percentages represent the degree to which arguments
associated with different thematic roles can be interchanged
(e.g. the extent
to which an agent can be encoded in the same way as a
patient) — averaged over
30-plus experimental subjects responding to 16 experimental
stimuli testing
various morphosyntactic configurations.<span>
</span>Thus, lower percentages represent greater rigidity
and obligatoriness in
the encoding of thematic roles, while higher percentages
represent greater
flexibility and optionality — the state of affairs that
prompted Vladimir's
query.<span> </span><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">As
suggested by the above figures, Riau Indonesian turns out to
be
mid-range with respect to the extent of grammaticalization
of thematic
roles.<span> </span>The true outlier turns out to be
English, which scores the highest of the 69 languages
(albeit not statistically
significantly higher than a handful of other mostly WEIRD
languages).<span> </span>At the other end of the scale, a
wide range
of languages from all over the world exhibit much greater
flexibility in the
encoding of thematic roles than Riau Indonesian.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The
experimental results suggest that the main factor governing
the degree
of grammaticalization of thematic roles is the complexity of
the polity
associated with the language in question:<span>
</span>sociopolitical complexity correlates positively with
grammatical
complexity as manifest in thematic role encoding.<span> </span>The
above correlation also explains why the
absence of encoding of thematic roles is massively
under-represented in the
linguistic literature, which, even in the 2020s, retains a
bias towards
languages associated with greater sociopolitical complexity.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Best
wishes,<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">David<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Gil,
David and Yeshayahu Shen (2019) "How Grammar Introduces
Asymmetry into
Cognitive Structures: Compositional Semantics, Metaphors and
Schematological
Hybrids", <i>Frontiers in Psychology - Language Sciences</i>
(</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(2,2,2);background:white">doi:10.3389/fpsyg.2019.02275)<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></span></p>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 4:50 PM
Vladimir Panov via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">In order to specify my question a little bit:
By saying NO MARKING I mean exactly this: NO MARKING AT ALL.
E.g. if there is marking not on noun phrases but on the verb
or by clitics elsewhere in the clause, then there definitely
is marking of arguments. So typical "polysynthetic"
languages don't count.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>V.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">чт, 8 мая 2025 г. в 10:28,
Vladimir Panov <<a href="mailto:panovmeister@gmail.com" target="_blank">panovmeister@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Dear linguists,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have the following question. Are you aware of any
doculects/languages upon which there is a consensus
that semantic roles like S, A, P, R are not
obligatorily encoded, neither morphologically, nor
through word order or adpositions? That is, languages
in which the assignment of semantic roles, if any, is
entirely matter of context/pragmatics. The famous Riau
Indonesian comes to my mind. Any other suggestions?
Maybe there are publications dedicated specifically to
this problem?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Vladimir Panov, Vilnius University</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</div>
<br>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<pre cols="72">David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:dapiiiiit@gmail.com" target="_blank">dapiiiiit@gmail.com</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302</pre>
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</blockquote></div><div><br clear="all"></div><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><pre cols="72">David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:dapiiiiit@gmail.com" target="_blank">dapiiiiit@gmail.com</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302</pre>
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