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<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00">Dear Juergen,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00">I’m not accusing you of anything. The points I want to make are two things, directly related to your original questions
on how to define indigenous and western:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00">Modern colonialism is not uniquely European.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:4.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;word-break:break-hangul">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00">There is no such thing as the West.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00">To elaborate my second point, the only reason why we still believe that “the West” is a valid category is mainly because
<u>the European cultural groups of the said non-European “Western” countries want to define their own countries based on their cultural identity</u> while viewing other cultural components as peripheral. In reality, the non-European “Western” cultures are categorically
different from European cultures, the European cultural influx only being one part of their cultural entirety.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00">Ian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">朱 易安</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <br>
JOO, IAN <br>
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">准教授</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <br>
Associate Professor <br>
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">小樽商科大学</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <br>
Otaru University of Commerce<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Apple Color Emoji";color:black;mso-fareast-language:#0C00">🌐</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:#0C00"> <a href="http://ianjoo.github.io/"><span style="color:#714FBC">ianjoo.github.io</span></a><br>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="word-break:break-hangul"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:#0C00"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">보낸</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="color:black">
</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">사람</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77@buffalo.edu><br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">날짜</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">금요일</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">, 2025</span><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">년</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> 5</span><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">월</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">
30</span><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">일</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> 12:48<br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">받는</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="color:black">
</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">사람</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">JOO Ian <joo@res.otaru-uc.ac.jp>, Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">주제</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Re: Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear Ian – I’m not sure where you’re going with this. I’m getting the sense that you want to have a different discussion from the one I was trying to have. When you have a country whose overwhelming majority
language is European, which has a political and legal/judicial system of European origin, and the vast majority of whose citizens practice religions of European origins, then surely you don’t want to deny that that country is under massive European cultural
influence?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Or perhaps you do want to deny that? Well, good for you. But, it so happens that that cultural influence is precisely the phenomenon that makes this whole topic relevant to my work.
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">If you’re trying to accuse me of erasing non-European cultural influences in the countries in question – that would be quite ironic to me, since the desire to avoid such erasure is part of my motivation for
looking for an alternative to ‘Western’.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Best – Juergen</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
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There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">From: </span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">JOO Ian <joo@res.otaru-uc.ac.jp><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, May 29, 2025 at 23:23<br>
<b>To: </b>Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77@buffalo.edu>, Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif";color:#212121">Dear Juergen,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif";color:#212121">"the dominant cultural framework of the countries in question is very much of European descent, in precisely the way Ilana points out. Which manifests itself perhaps most notably
in the othering (and often enough downright oppression) that people of non-European descent routinely experience in these countries."</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif";color:#212121"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif";color:#212121">Isn't defining the culture of the European half of the population as the dominant cultural framework of the said countries
<u>precisely also an othering of the people of non-European descent</u>? Why define only one half of the culture as the dominant framework?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif";color:#212121"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif";color:#212121">"But the Min Nan speakers whose descendants arrived in the 18<sup>th</sup> or even 17<sup>th</sup> century (if memory serves) are an intermediate category. I could see people
contrasting them against the Mandarin speakers as relatively more indigenous, although I wouldn’t personally use the term that way."</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif";color:#212121">By the same logic, are the English migrants to America in the 17th Century also halfway indigenous?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif";color:#212121">Regards,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif";color:#212121">Ian</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Associate Professor <br>
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Otaru University of Commerce</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">보낸</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">사람</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77@buffalo.edu><br>
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</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">날짜</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
Friday, May 30, 2025 12:17:14 PM<br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">받는</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">사람</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
JOO Ian <joo@res.otaru-uc.ac.jp>; Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">제목</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
Re: Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</span><span lang="EN-US">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear Ian – I would say yes, the dominant cultural framework of the countries in question is very much of European descent, in precisely the way Ilana points out. Which manifests itself perhaps
most notably in the othering (and often enough downright oppression) that people of non-European descent routinely experience in these countries.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">In the case of Taiwan, I think most linguists and anthropologists would agree that the prototypical core of the notion of indigeneity applies to the Austronesian groups of the island. Nobody
would treat the mainlanders who evacuated to the island at the end of the Chinese Civil War as indigenous. But the Min Nan speakers whose descendants arrived in the 18<sup>th</sup> or even 17<sup>th</sup> century (if memory serves) are an intermediate category.
I could see people contrasting them against the Mandarin speakers as relatively more indigenous, although I wouldn’t personally use the term that way.
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">So, perhaps we can agree that indigeneity cannot be defined independently of some historic frame – there may be no such thing as absolute indigeneity. I do of course agree that that frame doesn’t
have to be European colonization.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Best – Juergen</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
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There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of JOO Ian via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, May 29, 2025 at 22:41<br>
<b>To: </b>Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dear Juergen,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I doubt Americans, Australians, Brazilians, etc., would appreciate being called ‘European’, yet their majority cultures/societies are ‘Western’ (i.e., of European descent).</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The percentage of Americans, Australians, and Brazilians of primarily European descent are approximately 57.8%, 57,2%, and 48% respectively, so about half. Why define by them only by
this half?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The problem is that the descent part of that definition requires some sort of temporal horizon, or some other framing perspective.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Didn’t the Han colonization of Taiwan – and many other non-European colonizations, such as the Japanese colonization of the Ryukyus – happen at the same time period as the European colonization?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Regards,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Ian</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">朱 易安</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <br>
JOO, IAN <br>
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">准教授</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <br>
Associate Professor <br>
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">小樽商科大学</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <br>
Otaru University of Commerce</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color Emoji";color:black">🌐</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <a href="http://ianjoo.github.io/"><span style="color:#714FBC">ianjoo.github.io</span></a><br>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">보낸</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">사람</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77@buffalo.edu><br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">날짜</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">금요일</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">, 2025</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">년</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
5</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">월</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> 30</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">일</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
11:32<br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">받는</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">사람</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">JOO Ian <joo@res.otaru-uc.ac.jp>, Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">주제</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Re: Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear Ian – I doubt Americans, Australians, Brazilians, etc., would appreciate being called ‘European’, yet their majority cultures/societies are ‘Western’ (i.e., of European descent).</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">That was the easier of your two questions. The first one is trickier. I agree with you in principle that it would be appropriate to extend the concept of indigeneity to any communities that
aren’t colonial or descendant from colonizers. The problem is that the descent part of that definition requires some sort of temporal horizon, or some other framing perspective. Bantu people colonized much of Sub-Saharan Africa, Tupians large swaths of the
Amazon. Do we therefore treat Bantu and Tupian cultures as non-indigenous? I think it depends on the context – there is likely no universally valid definition.
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Best – Juergen</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
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Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
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There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of JOO Ian via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, May 29, 2025 at 22:23<br>
<b>To: </b>Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dear Juergen,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">By ‘indigenous’, I mean pragmatically that the presence of the community in the area they inhabit is not an immediate result of European colonization.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Why <b>
European</b> colonization specifically, and not colonization by other forces (such as the Han colonization of Taiwan)?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">‘(Non-)Western cultures/societies’: By this I mean any cultures/societies of (non-)European origin/descent.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Why not just call them European?
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">From Otaru,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Ian</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">朱 易安</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <br>
JOO, IAN <br>
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">准教授</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <br>
Associate Professor <br>
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">小樽商科大学</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <br>
Otaru University of Commerce</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color Emoji";color:black">🌐</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> <a href="http://ianjoo.github.io/"><span style="color:#714FBC">ianjoo.github.io</span></a><br>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">보낸</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">사람</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">이</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">(</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">가</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">)
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">다음</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">사람</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">대신</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">보냄</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">: Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">날짜</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">금요일</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">, 2025</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">년</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
5</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">월</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> 30</span><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">일</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
11:01<br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">받는</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
</span></b><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">사람</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
</span><b><span lang="KO" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"맑은 고딕",sans-serif;color:black">주제</span></b><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">[Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear all – I really need your help with this! I’ve been struggling for quite some time now with the terms ‘traditional culture/society’ and ‘(non-)Western culture/society’. Both concepts play
significant roles in my work, but both labels seem problematic. I’m looking for better alternatives. (If you want to call this query an exercise in political correctness, I would plead guilty to the charge. I do try to avoid offending people unintentionally.)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Let me briefly try to explicate the concepts that I have been using these labels for:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">‘Traditional cultures/societies’: Small-scale indigenous communities practicing predominantly non-industrial (or pre-industrial) modes of production in non-urban settings. By ‘small-scale’,
I mean that stratification is predominantly in terms of age and gender, division of labor is low, and offices of power are largely non-hereditary. By ‘indigenous’, I mean pragmatically that the presence of the community in the area they inhabit is not an immediate
result of European colonization. And the concept needs to be flexible enough to allow for the fact that the overwhelming majority of such communities are part of larger majority societies, are in more or less intensive contact with them, are under pressure
by them, etc.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">I suspect that objections to the label ‘traditional’ may be the result of associating that label with Social Darwinism. At the same time, I find the label acceptable to the extent that one
accepts that modes of production, while not following a strict developmental sequence, are not distributed randomly throughout human history either, particularly in the sense that industrialization did not take place prior to the Industrial Revolution. So
what I’m looking for is a label that occupies the sweet spot between Social Darwinism and completely ahistoric and non-evolutionary perspectives of social organization.
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">The sexiest currently available alternative to ‘traditional’ is ‘non-WEIRD’, in the Heinrich-et-al.-(2010) sense of ‘WEIRD’ (Western educated industrialized rich democratic). I don’t personally
mind using that term, but it is awfully vague. There are many developing nations that I would not consider WEIRD (they may check neither of the five definitional properties), but that do not globally fit the ‘traditional’ concept either.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">‘(Non-)Western cultures/societies’: By this I mean any cultures/societies of (non-)European origin/descent. The problem with the label ‘Western’ is the very misleading geographic association
with the Western hemisphere: the vast majority of Europe isn’t even part of the Western hemisphere, and there are ‘Western’ societies (societies of European descent) outside Europe *<b>and</b>* outside the Western hemisphere, *<b>and</b>* of course there are
many ‘non-Western’ cultures in the Western hemisphere. I’m well aware that the etymology of this use of ‘Western’ has little to do with the model of the geographic hemispheres, but my sense is that people make the association whether it belongs there or not
– I know I do.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">I suspect the best solution to the second problem is to just talk about ‘cultures/societies of (non-)European origin/descent’. That’s a mouthful, but sooner or later somebody will coin a handy
acronym. But I wanted to make sure I’m not missing anything.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif"">Anyway, many thanks in advance for your help! – Juergen</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
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Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
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</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
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There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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