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<div dir="ltr">Dear Ilana,</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Doesn't that also apply to many Christian-dominant countries without European settlers, such as the Philippines or South Korea? The first president of South Korea, Rhee Seung Man, gave a prayer to the (Christian) god at the inauguration ceremony
of the republic.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Regards,</div>
<div dir="ltr">Ian</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>보낸 사람:</b> Ilana Mushin <i.mushin@uq.edu.au><br>
<b>보낸 날짜:</b> Friday, May 30, 2025 12:27:27 PM<br>
<b>받는 사람:</b> JOO Ian <joo@res.otaru-uc.ac.jp>; Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>제목:</b> Re: Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</font>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I recommend the historian Tom Holland’s book ‘Dominion’ as a great overview of the impact of Western Christianity on societies, including those which are not officially Christian (or in the Western Hemisphere).
Australia may not have an official religion, but its institutions are founded on a Christian ethos (the term that is erroneously used is ‘Judeo-Christian’, which itself presupposes a Christian view on what Judaism is about).
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="">Ilana Mushin FAHA</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="">Professor of Linguistics, </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="">School of Languages and Cultures</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="">Deputy Associate Dean (Research),</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="">Faculty of Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="">University of Queensland</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="">St Lucia, QLD 4072</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="">Ph: (07) 3365 6810</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of JOO Ian via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, 30 May 2025 at 1:17</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#212121">Dear Ilana,</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#212121">"The nation of Australia is predicated on these ideas and so we can say that Australia (as a national idea) is a ‘Western’ society, even if the population comes from all over the planet."</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#212121">How is the Australian nation based on Christianity when it has no state religion?</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#212121">If by European intellectual traditions you mean those like democracy, laicism, or capitalism, aren't most modern states founded based on those ideas, including Japan or South Korea?</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#212121">Regards,</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#212121">Ian</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"ArialMT",serif; color:black">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"MS Gothic"; color:black">朱 易安</span><span style="font-family:"ArialMT",serif; color:black"> <br>
JOO, IAN <br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"MS Gothic"; color:black">准教授</span><span style="font-family:"ArialMT",serif; color:black"> <br>
Associate Professor <br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"MS Gothic"; color:black">小樽商科大学</span><span style="font-family:"ArialMT",serif; color:black"> <br>
Otaru University of Commerce</span></p>
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<br>
</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"; color:black">🌐</span><span style="font-family:"ArialMT",serif; color:black">
<a href="http://ianjoo.github.io/">ianjoo.github.io</a><br>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">보낸</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">사람</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Ilana Mushin <i.mushin@uq.edu.au><br>
</span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">보낸</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">날짜</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">금요일</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">,
5</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">월</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> 30, 2025 11:49
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">오전</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
</span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">받는</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">사람</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77@buffalo.edu>; JOO Ian <joo@res.otaru-uc.ac.jp>;
Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
</span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">제목</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Re: Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional'
and 'non-Western' cultures</span> </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I think ‘Western’ for me is less about hemisphere and more about intellectual traditions – those that emerged from Western Europe and especially the Western European branch of Christianity (Catholicism,
followed by Protestantism). The nation of Australia is predicated on these ideas and so we can say that Australia (as a national idea) is a ‘Western’ society, even if the population comes from all over the planet. ‘Traditional’ in the Australian context tends
to apply to Indigenous cultures when talking about cultural practices (including language) that pre-date colonisation; and for non-Indigenous culture when talking about cultural practices that pre-date immigration.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">-- <span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Ilana Mushin FAHA<span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Professor of Linguistics,<span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">School of Languages and Cultures<span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Deputy Associate Dean (Research),<span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Faculty of Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences.<span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">University of Queensland<span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">St Lucia, QLD 4072<span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Ph: (07) 3365 6810<span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">CRICOS Provider No: 00025B<span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, 30 May 2025 at 12:38</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">PM<br>
<b>To: </b>JOO Ian <joo@res.otaru-uc.ac.jp>, Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear Ian – I doubt Americans, Australians, Brazilians, etc., would appreciate being called ‘European’, yet their majority cultures/societies are ‘Western’ (i.e., of European descent).</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">That was the easier of your two questions. The first one is trickier. I agree with you in principle that it would be appropriate to extend the concept of indigeneity to any communities that aren’t
colonial or descendant from colonizers. The problem is that the descent part of that definition requires some sort of temporal horizon, or some other framing perspective. Bantu people colonized much of Sub-Saharan Africa, Tupians large swaths of the Amazon.
Do we therefore treat Bantu and Tupian cultures as non-indigenous? I think it depends on the context – there is likely no universally valid definition.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Best – Juergen</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"CMU Serif""> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:#0078D4"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:black"><br>
Web: </span><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:#0563C1"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span style="color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of JOO Ian via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, May 29, 2025 at 22:23<br>
<b>To: </b>Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dear Juergen,</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:47.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">By ‘indigenous’, I mean pragmatically that the presence of the community in the area they inhabit is not an immediate result of European colonization.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Why
<b>European</b> colonization specifically, and not colonization by other forces (such as the Han colonization of Taiwan)?</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:47.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">‘(Non-)Western cultures/societies’: By this I mean any cultures/societies of (non-)European origin/descent.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Why not just call them European?</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">From Otaru,</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Ian</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"MS Gothic"; color:black">朱 易安</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> <br>
JOO, IAN <br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"MS Gothic"; color:black">准教授</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> <br>
Associate Professor <br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"MS Gothic"; color:black">小樽商科大学</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> <br>
Otaru University of Commerce</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"; color:black">🌐</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span><u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#714FBC"><a href="http://ianjoo.github.io/"><span style="color:#714FBC">ianjoo.github.io</span></a></span></u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"><br>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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</span></b><span style="color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">이</span><span style="color:black">(</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">가</span><span style="color:black">)
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</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">보냄</span><span style="color:black">: Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
</span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">날짜</span></b><b><span style="color:black">:
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">금요일</span><span style="color:black">, 2025</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">년</span><span style="color:black"> 5</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">월</span><span style="color:black"> 30</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">일</span><span style="color:black"> 11:01<br>
</span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">받는</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black">
</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">사람</span></b><b><span style="color:black">:
</span></b><span style="color:black">Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
</span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif; color:black">주제</span></b><b><span style="color:black">:
</span></b><span style="color:black">[Lingtyp] Two terminological quandaries for the price of one: 'traditional' and 'non-Western' cultures</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Dear all – I really need your help with this! I’ve been struggling for quite some time now with the terms ‘traditional culture/society’ and ‘(non-)Western culture/society’. Both concepts play significant roles in my work,
but both labels seem problematic. I’m looking for better alternatives. (If you want to call this query an exercise in political correctness, I would plead guilty to the charge. I do try to avoid offending people unintentionally.)</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Let me briefly try to explicate the concepts that I have been using these labels for:</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">‘Traditional cultures/societies’: Small-scale indigenous communities practicing predominantly non-industrial (or pre-industrial) modes of production in non-urban settings. By ‘small-scale’, I mean that stratification is
predominantly in terms of age and gender, division of labor is low, and offices of power are largely non-hereditary. By ‘indigenous’, I mean pragmatically that the presence of the community in the area they inhabit is not an immediate result of European colonization.
And the concept needs to be flexible enough to allow for the fact that the overwhelming majority of such communities are part of larger majority societies, are in more or less intensive contact with them, are under pressure by them, etc.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">I suspect that objections to the label ‘traditional’ may be the result of associating that label with Social Darwinism. At the same time, I find the label acceptable to the extent that one accepts that modes of production,
while not following a strict developmental sequence, are not distributed randomly throughout human history either, particularly in the sense that industrialization did not take place prior to the Industrial Revolution. So what I’m looking for is a label that
occupies the sweet spot between Social Darwinism and completely ahistoric and non-evolutionary perspectives of social organization.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">The sexiest currently available alternative to ‘traditional’ is ‘non-WEIRD’, in the Heinrich-et-al.-(2010) sense of ‘WEIRD’ (Western educated industrialized rich democratic). I don’t personally mind using that term, but
it is awfully vague. There are many developing nations that I would not consider WEIRD (they may check neither of the five definitional properties), but that do not globally fit the ‘traditional’ concept either.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">‘(Non-)Western cultures/societies’: By this I mean any cultures/societies of (non-)European origin/descent. The problem with the label ‘Western’ is the very misleading geographic association with the Western hemisphere:
the vast majority of Europe isn’t even part of the Western hemisphere, and there are ‘Western’ societies (societies of European descent) outside Europe *<b>and</b>* outside the Western hemisphere, *<b>and</b>* of course there are many ‘non-Western’ cultures
in the Western hemisphere. I’m well aware that the etymology of this use of ‘Western’ has little to do with the model of the geographic hemispheres, but my sense is that people make the association whether it belongs there or not – I know I do.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">I suspect the best solution to the second problem is to just talk about ‘cultures/societies of (non-)European origin/descent’. That’s a mouthful, but sooner or later somebody will coin a handy acronym. But I wanted to make
sure I’m not missing anything.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"CMU Serif"">Anyway, many thanks in advance for your help! – Juergen</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:#0078D4"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:black"><br>
Web: </span><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:#0563C1"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Helvetica; color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></p>
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