<html><head></head><body> <div dir="auto">It seems everyone is trying to force the languages into a rigid phoneme structure, but languages show variation, and even something that can be shown to form a minimal pair can in other words be variable. For example, in Tagalog there are a few words that show a contrast between /i/ and /e/, such as <i dir="auto">iwan </i>‘being left behind’ and <i dir="auto">ewan</i> ‘not knowing’, but in many words the two are interchangeable, e.g. <i dir="auto">puti</i> ~ <i dir="auto">pote</i> ‘whiteness’.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Some people now call typology “diversity linguistics”, which is very good, but we also need to pay attention to the diversity language-internally. Weinreich, Labov, and Herzog (1968) discuss how problematic the Structuralist </div><div dir="auto">conception of language as homogeneous is, and argue instead for a view of language as </div><div dir="auto">heterogeneous, and argue that “command of heterogeneous structures is not a matter of </div><div dir="auto">multidialectism or “mere” performance, but is part of unilingual linguistic competence” </div><div dir="auto">(Weinreich et al. 1968: 101).</div><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">Hockett (1967[1977]:256), towards the end of his career, said, “Beyond the design implied by the factors and mechanisms that we have discussed, a language has no design. The search for an exact determinate formal system by which a language can be precisely characterized is a wild goose chase, because a language neither is nor reflects any such system. A language is not, as Saussure thought, a system ‘où tout se tient’. Rather, the apt phrase is Sapir’s ‘all grammars leak’.”</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Randy</div></div><div><br></div> <div><br></div><div><br></div>On Sun, Jul 13, 2025 at 1:26 AM, Alex Francois via Lingtyp <<a class="" href="mailto:On Sun, Jul 13, 2025 at 1:26 AM, Alex Francois via Lingtyp <<a href=">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<blockquote type="cite" class="protonmail_quote"> <div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
Dear Christian, dear all,
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
Among the 17 (Oceanic, Austronesian) languages of northern Vanuatu, one has kept the 5-vowel system of Proto Oceanic {i e a o u}, but the other 16 have increased their inventories, to at least 7 vowel phonemes, and up to 13 or 14 for some languages
<span style="font-family:"arial narrow",sans-serif;font-size:x-small">(François 2005a)</span>.
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
Several languages, like Mwotlap, have 7 vowels, which I analyse like this:
</div>
<div style="" class="gmail_default">
<b style=""><font face="monospace">i u</font></b>
</div>
<div style="" class="gmail_default">
<b><font face="monospace"> ɪ ʊ</font></b>
</div>
<div style="" class="gmail_default">
<b><font face="monospace"> ɛ ɔ</font></b>
</div>
<div style="" class="gmail_default">
<b style=""><font face="monospace"> a</font></b>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
Usually, N Vanuatu languages do not contrast /ɪ/ with /e/, so admittedly someone could propose that the 7-vowel system above could "simply" be a case of cardinal vowels like this:
</div>
<div style="" class="gmail_default">
<div style="" class="gmail_default">
<b style=""><font face="monospace" style="">i u</font></b>
</div>
<div style="" class="gmail_default">
<b><font face="monospace"> e o</font></b>
</div>
<div style="" class="gmail_default">
<b><font face="monospace"> ɛ ɔ</font></b>
</div>
<div style="" class="gmail_default">
<b style=""><font face="monospace" style=""> a</font></b>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<br>
</div>
<font face="verdana, sans-serif">And indeed, this analysis is proposed by Malau (2016) for Vurës, one of the languages of the area.</font>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<br>
</div>
<div style="" class="gmail_default">
<font face="verdana, sans-serif">Personally I don't mind, but I'm not convinced that the second analysis would be more simple or economical than the first one. Also, one reason why I analyse the second-degree vowels as /ɪ ʊ/ is a phenomenon (rare in the Pacific) of ATR vowel harmony in </font>Mwotlap
<font face="verdana, sans-serif">, whereby a noun [</font>
<b style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">i</b>
<font face="verdana, sans-serif">pl</font>
<b style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">u</b>
<font face="verdana, sans-serif">] 'companion', when taking certain suffixes, involve the lowering of both vowels [</font>
<b style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">ɪ</b>
<font face="verdana, sans-serif">pl</font>
<b style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">ʊ</b>
<font face="verdana, sans-serif">n] 'his companion', with what looks like some form of ATR vowel harmony </font>
<font face="arial narrow, sans-serif" style="" size="1">(François 2005b:117)</font>
<font face="verdana, sans-serif">.</font>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
This is one of the reasons why I have been analysing the second degree vowels as /ɪ ʊ/ in that region.
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
Yet I can sympathise with the hesitation reported by Larry about Bantu languages, on the difficulty to choose between the /ɪ ʊ/ and the /e o/ analyses.
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
While some systems of northern Vanuatu are richer in vowel phonemes, they usually show the same contrast between /ɪ/ and /ɛ/ (rather than between /ɪ/ and /e/). See for example Lemerig and Mwerlap
<font size="1"> (counting diphthongs among vowel phonemes)</font>:
</div>
<div style="text-align:center;font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<img style="margin-right: 0px;" height="171" width="380" alt="image.png" src="cid:ii_md0gjt450" src-original-pm-cid="proton-cid:ii_md0gjt450">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="text-align:right" class="gmail_default">
<font size="1" face="arial narrow, sans-serif">(vowel charts from François 2011: 195)</font>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
_______
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
Now, one special case I encountered was the language of
<b><font color="#990000">Hiw </font></b>(Torres islands).
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
While its neighbours show systems such as those above, Hiw shows a contrast, unusual in the region, between /ɪ/ and /e/:
</div>
<div style="text-align:center;font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<img style="margin-right: 0px;" height="197" width="198" alt="image.png" src="cid:ii_md0gnax01" src-original-pm-cid="proton-cid:ii_md0gnax01">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
From the phonetic point of view, the system is quite asymmetrical, with the presence of mid-open [ɔ] among back vowels, but no mid-open [ɛ] in the front.
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
One might insist that, from some abstract perspective, /i ɪ e a/ is really similar to (or reanalysable as) /i e ɛ a/ (?); but I don't see what we would gain from forcing a symmetric structure onto a vowel system that is simply not symmetrical. When I studied Hiw, I was impressed that [ɛ] never came up as a phone, as /e/ was always pronounced quite high. Thus the verb 'go', which is [vɛn] in neighbouring Lo-Toga, is always realised [ven] in Hiw, with a higher vowel.
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
My acoustic impressions were confirmed as I calculated the average F1 and F2 for the 9 vowels of Hiw:
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:center;font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<img height="248" width="436" alt="image.png" src="cid:ii_md0gw8ky2" src-original-pm-cid="proton-cid:ii_md0gw8ky2">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
As you may imagine from the formant chart, distinguishing between the two phonemes /ɪ/ and /e/ was one of the challenges I faced when learning the language.
</div>
<div style="direction:ltr;font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
Good speakers insist that they do form minimal pairs, e.g. /ven/ 'go' vs. /vɪn/ 'go up, climb'.
</div>
<div style="direction:ltr;font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
Some younger speakers also found it difficult to hear the difference between /ɪ/ and /e/, or to reproduce it clearly; but my main teacher Jacob was able to distinguish them with clarity.
<span style="font-size:x-small"> (One of the lessons he gave me can be heard </span>
<a style="font-size:x-small" href="https://doi.org/10.24397/pangloss-0002834">here</a>
<span style="font-size:x-small">.)</span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
In sum, while there may be hesitation, for other North Vanuatu languages, between analysing the second-degree vowels as /ɪ ʊ/ or /e o/, at least for Hiw there is no such ambiguity that /ɪ/ exists as a phoneme – since it contrasts both with /i/ and with /e/.
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">
best
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<font style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" size="2">Alex</font>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">__________</span></font>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></span></font>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">PS: References:</span></font>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<ul>
<li><font face="arial narrow, sans-serif"><span style="" class="gmail_default">François, Alexandre. </span><span class="gmail_default"><a href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/AFpub_articles_e.htm#2005b">2005a</a>. </span>Unraveling the history of the vowels of seventeen northern Vanuatu languages. <i><span style="" class="gmail_default"></span>Oceanic Linguistics</i> 44 (2): 443-504. <span style="" class="gmail_default"></span><span style="" class="gmail_default"></span></font></li>
<li><font face="arial narrow, sans-serif"><span style="" class="gmail_default">—— </span>2005<span style="" class="gmail_default">b</span>. <span style="" class="gmail_default"></span>A typological overview of Mwotlap.<i><span style="" class="gmail_default"></span> Linguistic Typology </i>9-1: 115-146.<span style="" class="gmail_default"> [→<a href="https://marama.huma-num.fr/data/AlexFrancois_2005_LingTyp_Mwotlap.pdf#page=3">pp.117-118</a>]</span></font></li>
<li><font face="arial narrow, sans-serif"><span style="" class="gmail_default">—— 2011. </span>Social ecology and language history in the northern Vanuatu linkage: A tale of divergence and convergence. <i style=""><span style="" class="gmail_default"></span>Journal of Historical Linguistics</i> 1 (2). 175-246.<span style="" class="gmail_default"> </span><span style="" class="gmail_default"> [→<a style="" href="https://marama.huma-num.fr/data/AlexFrancois_2011_JHL1-2_Social-ecology_Vanuatu.pdf#page=20">pp.194-195</a>]</span></font></li>
</ul>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<br>
<hr align="left" noshade size="1" width="70" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<p style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif"><font size="2"><span style="color:rgb(69,129,142)">Alex François</span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></p>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/" style="text-decoration:none">LaTTiCe</a> — <a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="https://www.cnrs.fr/en" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" title="ENS">CNRS</a></span></font></span>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"> </font></span>
<a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="https://www.cnrs.fr/en" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" title="ENS"><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1">—</font></span></a>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"> </font></span>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" title="ENS">ENS</a></span></font></span>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none">–</span></font></span>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="https://www.psl.eu/en" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" title="ENS">PSL</a></span></font></span>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"> — </font></span>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" title="ENS">Sorbonne nouvelle</a></span></font></span>
<a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" title="ENS"><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span></a>
<font size="1"><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" title="ENS"></a><br></font>
<div>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="https://researchportalplus.anu.edu.au/en/persons/alex-francois" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none">Australian National University</a></span></font></span>
</div>
<div>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a target="_blank" rel="noopener" href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none">Personal homepage</a><br></span></font></span>
</div>
<div>
<font size="1">___________________</font>
<font size="1">___________________</font>
<font size="1">___</font>
<br>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">
---------- Forwarded message ---------
<br>From:
<strong dir="auto" class="gmail_sendername">Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp</strong>
<span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>></span>
<br>Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2025 at 17:28
<br>Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] contrast between [ɪ] and [e]
<br>To: <
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<u></u>
<div>
Thanks to everybody for your helpful hints. I will certainly countercheck my phonetic ear.
<br> As for my question #2, I will heed Larry's hint "(15c) is the expected 7V system worldwide". Indeed, [e] and [o] figure among the cardinal vowels, while [ɪ] and [ʊ] do not.
<br> @ Ian and Martin: I assume that the general principles you mention imply an answer to one of my questions. Would you mind giving me a clue in this respect?
<br>
<div>
--
<br>
<p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br> Rudolfstr. 4<br> 99092 Erfurt<br> <span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
<table style="font-size:80%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Tel.:</td>
<td>+49/361/2113417</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>E-Post:</td>
<td><a target="_blank" href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Web:</td>
<td><a target="_blank" href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div> _______________________________________________
<br> Lingtyp mailing list
<br>
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<br>
<a target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
<br>
</div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>