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Dear Martin et al. — We can empirically assess the extent to which the probability of a random language having a certain property depends on (or is influenced by, or varies with, etc.) it being related to certain other languages, or being spoken (or signed)
in a particular area. The validity of this statistical assessment does not depend on assumptions of what properties languages might have if they existed in isolation. The latter is merely one way of interpreting the meaning of the result of the former (and
not necessarily a particularly useful way).</div>
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(Transition probabilities are a slightly different story because they are inferred from synchronic distributions and assumptions about phylogenetic relations. Michael definitely knows more about this than I do. The interpretation of transition probabilities
is something I’m still trying to wrap my head around. They are a bit more “spooky” to me as yet 😉)</div>
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Best — Juergen</div>
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<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; color: black;">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
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<b>From: </b>Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath via Lingtyp <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 19, 2025 at 15:17<br>
<b>To: </b>lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Reporting cross-linguistic frequencies<br>
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<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">Sorry, I'm confused by two things that have been said. </p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">Michael Cysouw said: </p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"><span style="font-size: 13px;">"Any frequency measured depends on many assumptions, including that the current linguistic situation in the world’s languages might very well be different from any situation
in the (far) past or (far) future. Even something like estimates of the stable state from a dynamic model of typological transition probabilities (my favourite kind of numbers) is probably just a reflection of the forces influencing languages over the last
few thousand years. That is very interesting (I think), but still just one aspect of human language."</span></p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">Isn't "the stable state from a dynamic model of typological transition probabilities" the same as what Omri talked about in terms of "a hypothetical (and unrealistic) set of independent languages"?</p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">And isn't this the most important indicator in Greenbergian universalist typology? (Of course, one may also be interested in non-universalist questions and use typological notions and results, but
this wouldn't be Greenbergian.)</p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">And Östen Dahl said:</p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"><span style="font-size: 13px;">"The idea of a language without relatives or neighbours is somewhat reminiscent of “homo economicus” in economics or closer to our concerns, Chomsky’s “ideal speaker-listener
in a completely homogeneous speech-community”. Like those phantoms, the isolated isolate can at most serve as a useful temporary construct but can hardly be the final goal of our endeavour."</span></p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">But nobody has suggested that the "isolated isolates" fiction should be a "goal of our endeavor". The goal is to estimate the probability of a feature appearing in a
language regardless of its history. For example, if we want to argue that high elevation makes ejectives more likely (see
<a href="https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0245522" originalsrc="https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0245522" data-outlook-id="fc6fcd0d-6089-4a4d-a776-901de89d6d1a" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
Urban & Moran 2021</a> for recent discussion), we need to look at multiple independent cases of ejectives in high-elevation locations. Pointing to a lot of ejectives in the Caucasus is not convincing because ejectives there could be an areal feature that is
largely due to contact.</span></p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">So I don't see any problems with Omri's "isolated isolates" fiction.</span></p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Martin</span></p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19.11.25 16:36, Michael Cysouw via Lingtyp wrote:</div>
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<pre><div class="moz-quote-pre">Dear Omri,
The real question is what you want to report. There is real value in all numbers that you propose, so simply report them all, explaining how you obtained them.
I think that your question arose because of the misconception (in my opinion) that there is something like the “true” frequencies of a typological parameter. They do not exist. Any frequency measured depends on many assumptions, including that the current linguistic situation in the world’s languages might very well be different from any situation in the (far) past or (far) future. Even something like estimates of the stable state from a dynamic model of typological transition probabilities (my favourite kind of numbers) is probably just a reflection of the forces influencing languages over the last few thousand years. That is very interesting (I think), but still just one aspect of human language.
best
Michael
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Prof. Dr. Michael Cysouw
Forschungszentrum Deutscher Sprachatlas
Philipps Universität Marburg
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<pre><div class="moz-quote-pre">On 18. Nov 2025, at 10:23, Omri Amiraz via Lingtyp <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" data-outlook-id="78d75e2d-d39e-47d8-b93c-6d1b6c9e5f8a"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
I would like to raise the question of how cross-linguistic frequencies of typological features ought to be reported. The issue has been discussed extensively, but I still find some aspects conceptually confusing, so I hope this discussion might be helpful for others as well.
To make this concrete, consider the order of object and verb (OV, VO, no dominant order). Suppose, for the sake of argument, that we have complete data for every language in Glottolog. This would give us theactual proportion of languages that are OV vs. VO in the present-day world. The core problem, however, is that languages are not independent datapoints, so these actual frequencies also reflect genealogical and areal biases.
For that reason, it is common practice to report adjusted frequencies instead, either through non-proportional stratified sampling (Dryer 2018) or through statistical bias controls (Becker & Guzmán Naranjo 2025). As far as I understand, both methods aim to estimate something like: If each language were independent (as if every language were an isolate and had no contact with its neighbors), what proportion would be OV vs. VO? In other words, the population being described is not the set of existing languages but a hypothetical (and unrealistic) set of independent languages.
Now, suppose that the actual frequencies of OV and VO are equal, but the adjusted frequency of OV is higher. In that case, it feels counterintuitive to say that OV is more common cross-linguistically than VO. Perhaps it is clearer to speak in terms of probabilities rather than proportions, given that the population is hypothetical. For instance, we might say: “When genealogical and areal biases are controlled for, the probability of a language being OV is 0.6". This means that the chance that a randomly sampled language isolate with no contact would be OV is 0.6. By contrast, saying “60% of the world’s languages are OV” when referring to an adjusted frequency seems potentially misleading.
I would appreciate hearing what others in the community think about how such statistics should ideally be reported.
Best regards,
Omri
References:
Becker, Laura and Guzmán Naranjo Matías. 2025. Replication and methodological robustness in quantitative typology. Linguistic Typology.
Dryer, Matthew S. 2018. On the order of demonstrative, numeral, adjective, and noun. Language 94(4), 798-833.
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Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
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