<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">The Italian proximal demonstrative<i> (que)sto</i> (ms) / <i>(que)sta </i>(fm) (with the corresponding plurals) are frequently used with some pragmatically negative connotation. This does not occur with the distal demonstrative (<i>quello</i>/<i>quella</i>), but I am pretty sure it can occur with the near-the-addressee proximal (<i>codesto</i>/<i>codesta</i>) for the varieties that have such a lexeme; not only the Tuscan variety, but also various southern dialects.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">But then, I doubt that proximal demonstratives are generally (if not universally) liable to develop such negative connotations. In other words, rather than being an idiosyncrasy of some languages, isn't this a widespread phenomenon? <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I bet somebody has the answer.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Best</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Pier Marco</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno gio 26 mar 2026 alle ore 10:39 PONSONNET Maia via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg4082290857534708243">
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<p>Hi Adam and all, </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>In my variety of oral French, I believe that 'c'teu' [st<span>œ]</span>, a modification of 'cette', has negative connotations. I'm not sure about the 'out of the norm' trait though - I think it's just derogatory. </p>
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<p>'Cette' is feminine, but I think one could even imagine [<span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols;font-size:14.6667px">st</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols;font-size:14.6667px">œ]
used with a masculine noun, given the right context (e.g. putain c'teu temps de merde). I have no idea whether this has been studied, but I'd be curious to know. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols;font-size:14.6667px"><br>
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<p>Cheers! </p>
<p>Maïa</p>
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<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt">Maïa Ponsonnet</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt">Chargée de Recherche HDR @ CNRS </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt">Dynamique
Du Langage</span></p>
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<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt">14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE -- </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt">+33
4 72 72 65 46</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt">Adjunct @ University of Western Australia</span><br>
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<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt">+ + + + <span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:10.6667px">+</span></span></p>
<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt"></span></p>
<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt">Membre du Comité d'Ethique de la Recherche, Université de Lyon</span></p>
<div><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt">
<p style="font-style:italic;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt"><a href="https://www.universite-lyon.fr/recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche/comite-d-ethique-de-la-recherche-245561.kjsp" id="m_4082290857534708243LPNoLP" target="_blank"></a></span></p>
<div><a href="https://cer.universite-lyon.fr/" id="m_4082290857534708243LPNoLP" target="_blank">https://cer.universite-lyon.fr/</a><br>
</div>
<i></i><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<p></p>
<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><br>
</p>
<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt"></span></p>
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<div id="m_4082290857534708243divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> de la part de Christoph Holz via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 26 mars 2026 10:17<br>
<b>À :</b> Adam James Ross Tallman<br>
<b>Cc :</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm</font>
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<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Hi Adam,<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU">In Tiang (Oceanic, Papua New Guinea), the proximal visible demonstrative
<i>(o)ro</i> has negative overtones. In its emotional function, it indicates surprise or anger of the speaker towards the referent marked with
<i>(o)ro</i> (Holz 2023: 197–200). This can include situations in which someone violates socially expected behaviours.<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU"><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU">Holz, Christoph. 2023. Discourse functions of ‘visible’ and ‘nonvisible’ demonstratives in Tiang (New Ireland) and in a cross-linguistic perspective. In Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, Robert L. Bradshaw, Luca Ciucci & Pema Wangdi (eds.),
<i>Celebrating indigenous voice: Legends and narratives in languages of the tropics and beyond</i>, 181–217. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU"><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU">Best wishes<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU">Christoph<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU"><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>-- <span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<b><span>Christoph Holz</span></b><span><span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Postdoctoral Research Fellow, University of Naples L'Orientale<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Adjunct Research Fellow, Jawun Research Institute, CQU<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Website: <a href="https://tianglanguage.wordpress.com/" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
https://tianglanguage.wordpress.com/</a><span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Orcid: <a href="https://orcid.org/0009-0005-7997-4928" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
https://orcid.org/0009-0005-7997-4928</a><span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Recent publications:<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span><a href="https://acquire.cqu.edu.au/articles/thesis/A_comprehensive_grammar_of_Tiang/25182350?file=44461052" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">A comprehensive grammar of Tiang</a><span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span><a href="https://www.elararchive.org/dk0759" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">Documentation of Konomala</a><span></span></span></p>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 25 Mar 2026 at 15:32, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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Hi all,</div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">
In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something) that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal
marker, it doesn't tend to have this meaning.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">
<br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">
<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="border-collapse:collapse;border:medium">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="94" valign="top" style="width:70.5pt;border:1pt solid windowtext;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
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<td width="90" valign="top" style="width:67.5pt;border-width:1pt 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:solid solid solid none;border-color:windowtext windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="EN-CA">adnominal</span></p>
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<td width="82" valign="top" style="width:61.45pt;border-width:1pt 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:solid solid solid none;border-color:windowtext windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="EN-CA">adverbial</span></p>
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<td width="51" valign="top" style="width:38.15pt;border-width:1pt 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:solid solid solid none;border-color:windowtext windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="EN-CA">verb</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="EN-CA">proximate</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">naa</span></i></p>
</td>
<td width="82" valign="top" style="width:61.45pt;border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">nɨa</span></i></p>
</td>
<td width="51" valign="top" style="width:38.15pt;border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">nɨka</span></i></p>
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<td width="94" valign="top" style="width:70.5pt;border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="EN-CA">distal</span></p>
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<td width="90" valign="top" style="width:67.5pt;border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">toa</span></i></p>
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<td width="82" valign="top" style="width:61.45pt;border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">toa</span></i></p>
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<td width="51" valign="top" style="width:38.15pt;border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">toka</span></i></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="EN-CA">more distal</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">oa</span></i></p>
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<td width="82" valign="top" style="width:61.45pt;border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt">
<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">oa~oka</span></i></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">oka</span></i></p>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">
At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.</div>
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<br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">
I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in another language? Let me know.</div>
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<br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">
best,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">
<br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">
Adam</div>
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<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">--</span>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">
Adam J.R. Tallman</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">
CNRS, Sedyl</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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</div></blockquote></div><div><br clear="all"></div><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><pre cols="72"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span>=========================================================
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span> |||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
------ professore emerito
/////// Scuola Normale Superiore
------- <a href="http://p.za" target="_blank">p.za</a> dei Cavalieri 7<span style="background-color:rgb(243,243,243)"><span></span></span>
/////// I-56126 PISA
------- phone: +39 050 509111
///////
------- HOME
/////// via Matteotti 197
------- I-55049 Viareggio LU
/////// phone: +39 0584 597206<span style="background-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></span>
------- cell.: +39 368 3830251
===============================================================
editor of "Italian Journal of Linguistics"<br> webpage <<a href="https://www.ae-info.org/ae/Member/Bertinetto_Pier" target="_blank">https://www.ae-info.org/ae/Member/Bertinetto_Pier</a>>
===============================================================</pre>
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