<div dir="ltr"><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">dear Adam,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">A classical example is the Latin demonstrative <i>iste</i>, in principle anchored on 2nd person ("that one, near you"), but also likely to take on derogatory undertones.  For example, in tribunal speeches, one would use <i>iste</i> to refer to one's (loathed) opponent: </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">This is often mentioned in Latin grammars, like <a href="https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/demonstrative-pronouns#:~:text=It%20especially%20refers%20to%20one%27s%20opponent%20(in%20court%2C%20etc.)%2C%20and%20frequently%20implies%20antagonism%20or%20contempt.">this passage from Allen & Greenough</a>:</div></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;font-weight:bolder;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:LinuxLibertineRegular,serif;font-size:17px"><em style="box-sizing:inherit">c.</em></span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:LinuxLibertineRegular,serif;font-size:17px"> </span><span style="box-sizing:inherit;font-weight:bolder;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:LinuxLibertineRegular,serif;font-size:17px"><span class="gmail-foreign" style="box-sizing:inherit;font-style:italic">Iste</span></span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:LinuxLibertineRegular,serif;font-size:17px"> is used of what is </span><em style="box-sizing:inherit;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:LinuxLibertineRegular,serif;font-size:17px">between the two others</em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:LinuxLibertineRegular,serif;font-size:17px"> in remoteness: often in allusion to the person addressed—hence called the </span><em style="box-sizing:inherit;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:LinuxLibertineRegular,serif;font-size:17px">demonstrative of the 2nd person</em><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:LinuxLibertineRegular,serif;font-size:17px">. It especially refers to one's opponent (in court, etc.), and frequently implies antagonism or contempt.</span></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br clear="all"></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">See also <a href="https://odysseum.eduscol.education.fr/les-demonstratifs#:~:text=pris%20une%20valeur%20p%C3%A9jorative">this online grammar</a> in French:</div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><ul style="box-sizing:inherit;margin:0px 0px 20px;padding-left:1.25em;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Roboto,sans-serif"><li class="gmail-liste" style="box-sizing:inherit;margin-top:16px;margin-left:9px;text-align:justify"><span style="box-sizing:inherit"><span style="box-sizing:inherit"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;line-height:18.4px"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span style="box-sizing:inherit"><b style="box-sizing:inherit;font-weight:bold"><i style="box-sizing:inherit"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;line-height:18.4px"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Iste</span></span></i></b><b style="box-sizing:inherit;font-weight:bold"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;line-height:18.4px"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> est le démonstratif de 2<span style="box-sizing:inherit;line-height:0;vertical-align:baseline">e</span> personne</span></span></b><span style="box-sizing:inherit;line-height:18.4px"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> ; il renvoie à la personne à laquelle on s’adresse, et à tout ce qui la concerne. En raison de son usage dans les discours pour désigner l’adversaire dans un procès par exemple, il a également pris une valeur <b style="box-sizing:inherit;font-weight:bold">péjorative</b>.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></li></ul></blockquote></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><span style="box-sizing:inherit"><span style="box-sizing:inherit"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;line-height:18.4px"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span style="box-sizing:inherit"><i style="box-sizing:inherit"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"></span>ista urbs</span></i><span style="box-sizing:inherit;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">, cette ville (dont tu parles)<br></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote></div><div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><i style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;text-indent:0cm;box-sizing:inherit"><span style="box-sizing:inherit;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">iste vir</span></i><span style="text-indent:0cm;box-sizing:inherit;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">, cet homme-là (ce misérable)</span></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Let me know if you want specific examples from texts.</div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">One that comes to mind is the beginning of Cicero's <i>In Catilinam</i>:  <i>furor iste tuus</i> “that (infamous) rage of yours”.</div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">best</div></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><font size="2" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Alex</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">PS:  I also concur with Maïa's example from colloquial French <i>ste</i> [stə].  It is surely the phonetic similarity that reminded me of Latin <i>iste</i> 😄</span><br></font><hr style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.33px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" width="70" size="1" noshade align="left"><p style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif"><font size="2"><span style="color:rgb(69,129,142)">Alex François</span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></span></font></p><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="text-decoration:none" href="http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">LaTTiCe</a> — <a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://www.cnrs.fr/en" rel="noopener" target="_blank">CNRS</a></span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"> </font></span><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://www.cnrs.fr/en" rel="noopener" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1">—</font></span></a><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"> </font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094" rel="noopener" target="_blank">ENS</a></span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none">–</span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://www.psl.eu/en" rel="noopener" target="_blank">PSL</a></span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"> — </font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Sorbonne nouvelle</a></span></font></span><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" rel="noopener" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span></a><font size="1"><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://www.sorbonne-nouvelle.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" rel="noopener" target="_blank"></a><br></font><div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://researchportalplus.anu.edu.au/en/persons/alex-francois" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Australian National University</a></span></font></span></div><div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://heliceo.huma-num.fr/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">HéLiCéO</a></span></font></span><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://marama.huma-num.fr/" rel="noopener" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"> — </span></font></span></a><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://marama.huma-num.fr/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">Personal homepage</a><br></span></font></span></div><div><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___</font><br><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span></div></div></div></div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">PONSONNET Maia via Lingtyp</strong> <span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>></span><br>Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2026 at 10:39<br>Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm<br>To: Adam James Ross Tallman <<a href="mailto:ajrtallman@utexas.edu">ajrtallman@utexas.edu</a>>, Lingtyp Linguistics Typology <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><br><br><div class="msg3978550557545496439">




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<p>Hi Adam and all, </p>
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</p>
<p>In my variety of oral French, I believe that 'c'teu' [st<span>œ]</span>, a modification of 'cette', has negative connotations. I'm not sure about the 'out of the norm' trait though  - I think it's just derogatory. </p>
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<p>'Cette' is feminine, but I think one could even imagine [<span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols;font-size:14.6667px">st</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols;font-size:14.6667px">œ]
 used with a masculine noun, given the right context (e.g. putain c'teu temps de merde). I have no idea whether this has been studied, but I'd be curious to know. </span></p>
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<p>Cheers! </p>
<p>Maïa</p>
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<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif;font-size:8pt">Maïa Ponsonnet</span></p>
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<div id="m_3978550557545496439divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> de la part de Christoph Holz via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 26 mars 2026 10:17<br>
<b>À :</b> Adam James Ross Tallman<br>
<b>Cc :</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm</font>
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<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Hi Adam,<span></span></span></p>
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<span><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU">In Tiang (Oceanic, Papua New Guinea), the proximal visible demonstrative
<i>(o)ro</i> has negative overtones. In its emotional function, it indicates surprise or anger of the speaker towards the referent marked with
<i>(o)ro</i> (Holz 2023: 197–200). This can include situations in which someone violates socially expected behaviours.<span></span></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-AU"><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU">Holz, Christoph. 2023. Discourse functions of ‘visible’ and ‘nonvisible’ demonstratives in Tiang (New Ireland) and in a cross-linguistic perspective. In Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, Robert L. Bradshaw, Luca Ciucci & Pema Wangdi (eds.),
<i>Celebrating indigenous voice: Legends and narratives in languages of the tropics and beyond</i>, 181–217. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.<span></span></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-AU"><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU">Best wishes<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU">Christoph<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span lang="EN-AU"><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>-- <span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<b><span>Christoph Holz</span></b><span><span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Postdoctoral Research Fellow, University of Naples L'Orientale<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Adjunct Research Fellow, Jawun Research Institute, CQU<span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Website: <a href="https://tianglanguage.wordpress.com/" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
https://tianglanguage.wordpress.com/</a><span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span>Orcid: <a href="https://orcid.org/0009-0005-7997-4928" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">
https://orcid.org/0009-0005-7997-4928</a><span></span></span></p>
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<span><span> </span></span></p>
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<span>Recent publications:<span></span></span></p>
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<span><a href="https://acquire.cqu.edu.au/articles/thesis/A_comprehensive_grammar_of_Tiang/25182350?file=44461052" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">A comprehensive grammar of Tiang</a><span></span></span></p>
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<span><a href="https://www.elararchive.org/dk0759" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">Documentation of Konomala</a><span></span></span></p>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 25 Mar 2026 at 15:32, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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Hi all,</div>
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In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something) that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal
 marker, it doesn't tend to have this meaning.</div>
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<span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="EN-CA">adnominal</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="EN-CA">adverbial</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="EN-CA">verb</span></p>
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<span lang="EN-CA">proximate</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">naa</span></i></p>
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<i><span lang="EN-CA">nɨa</span></i></p>
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<i><span lang="EN-CA">nɨka</span></i></p>
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<span lang="EN-CA">distal</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;text-indent:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i><span lang="EN-CA">toa</span></i></p>
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<i><span lang="EN-CA">toa</span></i></p>
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<i><span lang="EN-CA">toka</span></i></p>
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<span lang="EN-CA">more distal</span></p>
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<i><span lang="EN-CA">oa</span></i></p>
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<i><span lang="EN-CA">oa~oka</span></i></p>
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<i><span lang="EN-CA">oka</span></i></p>
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At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.</div>
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I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in another language? Let me know.</div>
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best,</div>
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Adam</div>
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Adam J.R. Tallman</div>
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CNRS, Sedyl</div>
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