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<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>I think it's pretty clear that demonstratives may convey emotive
meaning. I wonder to what extent that answers Adam's original
question though.</p>
<p>An additional element of those 'socially inappropriate' uses
could be taboo -- 'he/they did that (thing)', or just 'he/they
that-ed'.</p>
<p>@Adam: Would you have an example for us?</p>
<p>Best,<br>
Volker </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/27/26 05:06, Juergen Bohnemeyer
via Lingtyp wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:SJ0PR15MB46963AB01F5F19F7BCBD0DE6DD57A@SJ0PR15MB4696.namprd15.prod.outlook.com">
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Dear all — I suspect that some of the examples discussed in this
thread are primarily recognitional rather than inherently
negative. </div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Take Sebastian’s example, <i>Immer dieser Michel</i>. What
motivates recognitional deixis in this case is notoriety.
Notoriety in turn is commonly associated with negative
connotation. However, there are plenty of instances where
<i>dies</i> is used recognitionally with positive connotation.
To cite one example (begging all German speakers’
forgiveness preemptively for the groan factor) from a popular
goofy, shlocky 1970’s song:</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<i>Dieser Wuchs, diese Kraft </i></div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<i>weckt in mir die Leidenschaft</i></div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<i><br>
</i></div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
(May I please not translate this? Thank you!) </div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Now, this is not to say that there aren’t true examples of
social distancing conveyed by deixis. In fact, one might
hypothesize that the proximity/distance metaphor for (lack of)
familiarity/solidarity/shared in-group membership is itself a
universal. </div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
For instance, Hanks (2005: 206) notes that whenever a Yucatec
adult scolds a child, they will use distal deixis, even if the
addressee is spatially close enough to the speaker to warrant
proximal use. Since this is exophoric reference, a recognitional
analysis is out of the question.</div>
<div
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<br>
</div>
<div
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Best — Juergen</div>
<div
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<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "CMU Serif", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Hanks, W. (2005). Explorations in the deictic field. <i>Current
Anthropology </i>
46(2): 191-220.</div>
<div
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<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
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<b>From: </b>Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of
Annemarie Verkerk via Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, March 26, 2026 at 14:15<br>
<b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] [EXTERN] Lingtyp Digest, Vol
138, Issue 11<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="PlainText" style="font-size: 11pt;">Thanks Adam for
raising the question and Sebastian for writing about<br>
German.<br>
Dutch is like German but it seems, at least in the speech of
some, to go<br>
further. I have been puzzled by this for years, that is, the
use of<br>
'die' in front of human proper nouns, to signal either social
distance<br>
(almost something like kin/non-kin) and/or a 'very slight
disapproval'<br>
of the person mentioned.<br>
<br>
I don't have further answers though!<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Annemarie<br>
<br>
On 2026/03/26 13:00, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
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> Today's Topics:<br>
><br>
> 1. Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm<br>
> (Adam James Ross Tallman)<br>
> 2. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
norm<br>
> (Arnold Zwicky)<br>
> 3. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
norm<br>
> (Adam James Ross Tallman)<br>
> 4. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
norm<br>
> (Sebastian Nordhoff)<br>
> 5. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
norm<br>
> (Christoph Holz)<br>
> 6. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
norm<br>
> (PONSONNET Maia)<br>
> 7. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
norm<br>
> (Pier Marco Bertinetto)<br>
> 8. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
norm<br>
> (Alex Francois)<br>
><br>
><br>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 15:31:48 +0100<br>
> From: Adam James Ross Tallman
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ajrtallman@utexas.edu"><ajrtallman@utexas.edu></a><br>
> To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">"LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"</a><br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org"><LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
> Subject: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from
social norm<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:CAK0T6OihWPgP8BWUYbb745wD0QAn6XKHgkTrXGijfAdBADummg@mail.gmail.com"><CAK0T6OihWPgP8BWUYbb745wD0QAn6XKHgkTrXGijfAdBADummg@mail.gmail.com></a><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
><br>
> Hi all,<br>
><br>
> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means
"do something) that<br>
> deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a
pretty preliminary<br>
> description, so I'm open to other ideas and
reconceptualizations. I call it<br>
> 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it doesn't tend to
have this meaning.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> adnominal<br>
><br>
> adverbial<br>
><br>
> verb<br>
><br>
> proximate<br>
><br>
> *naa*<br>
><br>
> *n?a*<br>
><br>
> *n?ka*<br>
><br>
> distal<br>
><br>
> *toa*<br>
><br>
> *toa*<br>
><br>
> *toka*<br>
><br>
> more distal<br>
><br>
> *oa*<br>
><br>
> *oa~oka*<br>
><br>
> *oka*<br>
><br>
> At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but
not always.<br>
><br>
> I was wondering whether anyone had written about
something similar in<br>
> another language? Let me know.<br>
><br>
> best,<br>
><br>
> Adam<br>
> --<br>
> Adam J.R. Tallman<br>
> CNRS, Sedyl<br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
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><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 2<br>
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 07:54:11 -0700<br>
> From: Arnold Zwicky <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:arnold.zwicky@gmail.com"><arnold.zwicky@gmail.com></a><br>
> To: Adam James Ross Tallman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ajrtallman@utexas.edu"><ajrtallman@utexas.edu></a><br>
> Cc: Linguistic Typology
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org"><LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation
from social<br>
> norm<br>
> Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:733BC761-0BA2-4D63-8822-0DFCC3B4F13B@gmail.com"><733BC761-0BA2-4D63-8822-0DFCC3B4F13B@gmail.com></a><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>> On Mar 25, 2026, at 7:31 AM, Adam James Ross Tallman
via Lingtyp <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Hi all,<br>
>><br>
>> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that
means "do something) that deviates from socially normal
expectations". This is a pretty preliminary description, so
I'm open to other ideas and reconceptualizations. I call it
'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it doesn't tend to have
this meaning.<br>
> ..<br>
>> I was wondering whether anyone had written about
something similar in another language? Let me know.<br>
> his isn't very helpful, but I have a recolletion of
remote distal demonstratives being cited in several languages,
though I can't now find atual citations. (I suffer from having
lost all my files and also library access, so I have only my
very aged and imperfect memory.)<br>
><br>
> Arnold<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 3<br>
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 16:13:40 +0100<br>
> From: Adam James Ross Tallman
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ajrtallman@utexas.edu"><ajrtallman@utexas.edu></a><br>
> To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">"LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"</a><br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org"><LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation
from social<br>
> norm<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:CAK0T6OheH-EqwExzuzmL1L+5s+95zp6aLrGbzWdV_7TTLEya=Q@mail.gmail.com"><CAK0T6OheH-EqwExzuzmL1L+5s+95zp6aLrGbzWdV_7TTLEya=Q@mail.gmail.com></a><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
><br>
> Sorry just to clarify ... I meant not just cases of "out
of vision"<br>
> demonstratives, but cases where demonstratives mean
something about social<br>
> inappropriateness or dissonance.<br>
><br>
> A.<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2026 at 3:31?PM Adam James Ross Tallman
<<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ajrtallman@utexas.edu">ajrtallman@utexas.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Hi all,<br>
>><br>
>> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that
means "do something)<br>
>> that deviates from socially normal expectations".
This is a pretty<br>
>> preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas
and<br>
>> reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an
adnominal marker, it<br>
>> doesn't tend to have this meaning.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> adnominal<br>
>><br>
>> adverbial<br>
>><br>
>> verb<br>
>><br>
>> proximate<br>
>><br>
>> *naa*<br>
>><br>
>> *n?a*<br>
>><br>
>> *n?ka*<br>
>><br>
>> distal<br>
>><br>
>> *toa*<br>
>><br>
>> *toa*<br>
>><br>
>> *toka*<br>
>><br>
>> more distal<br>
>><br>
>> *oa*<br>
>><br>
>> *oa~oka*<br>
>><br>
>> *oka*<br>
>><br>
>> At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision",
but not always.<br>
>><br>
>> I was wondering whether anyone had written about
something similar in<br>
>> another language? Let me know.<br>
>><br>
>> best,<br>
>><br>
>> Adam<br>
>> --<br>
>> Adam J.R. Tallman<br>
>> CNRS, Sedyl<br>
>><br>
>><br>
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