<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Dear Björn,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">this sort of combined meaning is also observed in Italian and no doubt in other Romance languages, although I do not dare to name specific ones because other colleagues (Mario Squartini, for one) have studied these matters in much greater detail.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">At any rate, the last clause of your first example could be translated as:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">(Ciò) <i>sarebbe accaduto</i> nel 1999</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">with the past conditional, which is both (a) future-in-the-past (in pre-modern Italian, the simple conditional was more common, butit is now obsolete in this function, although perfectly vital in its other uses) and (b) an evidential marker.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">This does not exhaust the semantic possibilities of the Italian conditional, but it is enough to answer your question.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Needless to say, meanings (a) and (b) are independent and do not imply each other, but they can easily coexist in your example.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Best regards<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Pier Marco</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mar 16 giu 2026 alle ore 19:17 Wiemer, Bjoern via Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-4174966889919648897">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">do you know of languages in which a construction that evolved past prospective, avertive or even future-in-the-past meanings, concomitantly developed reportive uses?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US">In Polish, the construction
<i>mieć</i> ‘have’.PST + INF shows parallel development in both directions, and these meanings can even overlap (or be combined) in the same utterances. Here are two examples from the Polish National Corpus (the English translations are the best I can think
of, although they don’t convey this “dualism” faithfully):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PL">(1) Brygida umartwiała się, parząc się gorącym woskiem w miejscach, gdzie Chrystus miał rany. Przepowiedziała też koniec świata.
<b>Miał nastąpić</b> w 1999 roku.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">‘Brygida practised self-mortification by burning herself with hot wax in the places where Christ had been wounded. She also prophesied the end of the world. It
<b>was to take place</b> in 1999.’<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="m_-8254639361254497996MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:17.4pt"><span lang="EN-US">reportive + past prospective or future-in-the-past (depending on one’s definition of the latter)<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="PL">(2) Panie Ministrze, w poprzedniej kadencji dokonano zmian w strukturze na najniższych na najniższych szczeblach: zlikwidowano posterunki w gminach. To
<b>miało poprawić</b> stan bezpieczeństwa publicznego. A ja doświadczam tego, że został pogorszony stan bezpieczeństwa publicznego.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">‘Minister, during the previous parliamentary term, changes were made to the structure at the very lowest levels: police stations in local authorities were closed down. This
<b>was to improve</b> public safety. Yet my experience is that public safety has actually deteriorated.’<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> > reportive + avertive (i.e. prospective with contradiction to promise in the last sentence)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">There are other languages in which a future-in-the-past meaning, or related meanings, have developed from a construction with a deontic modal, or a desiderative verb, in the past (‘had to, should’, ‘want’) and an infinitive
(or an equivalent form of a lexical verb). Often these constructions appear as conditionals (or are dubbed as such), as, e.g., for Balkan Slavic and Romance languages. However, in these languages no reportive meaning evolved out of the same construction.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> Conversely, there might be languages which have developed (or were on the way of developing) a reportive meaning out of such a construction, but not a future-in-the-past meaning.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US">The history of German seems to provide a case similar to the Polish one, but the development stopped short. In earlier stages of High German we find
<i>sollten</i> ‘should’ as a kind of future-in-the-past, and it even seems to have occasionally been attested in reportive use, but the latter use has disappeared, while the future-in-the-past meaning has persisted (although it might have been marginalized
by its “rival” <i>würde</i> + INF). This is complementary to the fate of <i>sollen</i>, the present tense equivalent of
<i>sollten</i>: <i>sollen</i> + INF can be used as a reportive construction (apart from deontic use), but it has not established as a future auxiliary (although there might have been pre-stages into that direction).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">One thus gets the impression that, at least in Europe, Polish is unique for its parallel development of both future-in-the-past and reportive uses (from the
<b>same</b> construction). Both uses have existed at least since the 17<sup>th</sup> century and are well attested in the contemporary language. However, I doubt whether Polish is the only known case from a broader typological point of view.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> I’d appreciate any information on comparable cases in other languages, from different continents (and at different periods).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</div></blockquote></div><div><br clear="all"></div><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><pre cols="72"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span>=========================================================
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span> |||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
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