14.57, Qs: ASCII-IPA/SAMPA, Place-holder Words

Thu Jan 9 05:27:43 UTC 2003

LINGUIST List:  Vol-14-57. Thu Jan 9 2003. ISSN: 1068-4875.

Subject: 14.57, Qs: ASCII-IPA/SAMPA, Place-holder Words

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1)
Date:          Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:30:47 -0500
From:          Andrew Marchenko <aemarch at MAIL.RU>
Subject:       ASCII-IPA vs. SAMPA

2)
Date:  Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:23:04 +0000
From:  Fabrice Emont <f.emont at libertysurf.fr>
Subject:  place-holder words

-------------------------------- Message 1 -------------------------------

Date:          Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:30:47 -0500
From:          Andrew Marchenko <aemarch at MAIL.RU>
Subject:       ASCII-IPA vs. SAMPA

Hallo, everybody!

I'd like to convert IPA symbols from paper or internet dictionaries to
my Palm microcomputer personal dictionary (ASCII only).

Internet search showed me the transcription schemes
that suite me best:

ASCII-IPA
([http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/ascii-ipa.pdf]
"Representing IPA phonetics in ASCII"
by Evan Kirshenbaum)

and

SAMPA
([http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm].
See also "Computer Coded Phonetic Transcription"
by J. C. Wells, Journal of the IPA, 17(2): 94-114, 1987).

What is more preferable? Which one to choose?
Any thoughts will be kindly appreciated.

Andrew Marchenko,
English learner,
Palm user.
aemarch at mail.ru

-------------------------------- Message 2 -------------------------------

Date:  Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:23:04 +0000
From:  Fabrice Emont <f.emont at libertysurf.fr>
Subject:  place-holder words

Dear linguists,

I'm working on the semantics and pragmatics of place-holder words,
mainly in French. These words are ''truc'', ''bidule'',
''machin''... (in English : ''thingummy'', ''doodah'',
''whatchamacallit''...).  In connection with this research, I'd like
to know if this kind of word is universal, how other languages create
place-holder words (derived from pronoun, from a phrase, from a noun,
use of specific forms...) and how these words are used.  That's why I
need your help : to find counterparts of these words in other
languages (German, Tagalog, Arabic, Swedish, Swahili, Wolof, Japanese,
Cherokee, Inuit, Lao, Dyirbal, or any other), with examples of use.

Here are the main uses I've found in French (and their counterparts in
English). How are they achieved in other languages?

- Replacing a forgotten(or unknown) word/name/syllabe : ''Elle est
venue avec M. Machintruc, je sais plus son nom...'' (She came with Mr
Thingummy, I can't remember his name) ;''Mon grand-pÃ¨re est Ã 
Istan-machinchose (=Istanbul)'' (my grand-father is in
Istan-thingummy)

- Replacing a taboo word : ''L'exhibitionniste lui a montrÃ© son
machin'' (the exhibitionist showed him his thingummy)

- Talking about something the adressee can easily identify : ''Peux-tu
me passer le machin bleu?'' (can you give me the blue thingo)

- Talking about other examplars of a (supposed) category : ''Il
pouvait parler sans fin de libertÃ©, de justice, de machin, de truc.''
(He could endlessly talk about freedom, justice, and whatnot.''

- Talking about an unknown thing : ''un machin m'a mordu'' (? a
thingummy bit me / something bit me)

- Talking about an atypical or despised thing : ''ce machin ne peut
pas rester devant chez moi'' (? you can't let that doodah in front of
my house)

The place-holder words are generally used in informal speech, and are
nouns. Sometimes, they can replace a verb or an adjective (rarely, in
French) : I've read that the Tagalog word ''kwan'' (?) can do this, is
it true?

It seems, but I live in France and am not a native speaker of English,
that the place-holder words like ''thingummy'' are less common in
English than words like ''truc/machin'' are in French, maybe because
''thing/something'' is used more often than ''chose/quelque chose''?
In German, I found few examples of ''Dingsda'' which is given as an
equivalent of ''thingummy'' : do the Germans speak so precisely that
they don't need this word, or do they use other strategies?

Of course, I'm also looking for bibliography about these words. Here
is what I have found until now : Channell J., Vague Language, Oxford
University Press, 1994 ; Enfield N.J., ''Semantics of
What-d'you-call-it : semantics and pragmatics of recognitional
deixis'', in Journal of Pragmatics, 35, 2003 ; Kleiber G., ''Une
leÃ§on de chose : sur le statut semantico-referentiel du mot chose'',
in Nominales : essai de semantique referentielle, Colin, 1994.

I'll post a summary.

Thank you

Fabrice Emont

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