LL-L: "Frisian" (was "East meets West") [E] LOWLANDS-L, 10.AUG.1999 (02)

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.AUG.1999 (02) * ISSN 1089-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Muhammed Suleiman [suleiman at lineone.net]
Subject: Back to the point

Dear Lowlanders,

Since Ron has so masterfully steered us back to the realm of the Lowlanders, let
me take the bait and follow up one of his comments.

Ron states :
                "For instance, the _Frisii_ of the
North Sea coast are already mentioned by early Greek writers, and it appears
safe to say that they were not speakers of Germanic and possibly not of Celtic,
most likely being descendants of people who did not speak Indo-European.  Who
were they?  What did they speak?"

I am not familiar with the Greek references to the _Frisii_ (Frisoi ?), do they
tell us anything at all about these people, such as the names of chiefs? Which
authors do these references appear in?

Secondly, on a slightly more mundane note, there is an old rhyme in English:

           Good bread and good cheese      is good English and good Friese

Can anyone tell me if this is EXACTLY true in any of the Friesian dialects. I
know it is essentially correct, but does the Friesian word for 'cheese' not
begin with a hard k- ? And should the -d of 'and' not remain silent (as it can
in colloquial English)? I have always wondered about this, and would be grateful
if someone could put me out of my misery!

Lastly, I would like to raise a query about the Germanic tribe called the
_Ingvaeones_, and the branch of West Gemanic which is sometimes called
Ingvaeonic. (a) Were the Ingvaeones originally Germanic, Ron's mantion of the
non-Germanic origin of the _Frisii_ has got me wondering; (b) English ( and
presumably Scots) and Frisian are generally described as being sister Ingvaeonic
languages, can the other Low German members of West Germanic also be linked to
this, or is 'North Sea Germanic' out on a limb? (Even the latter term seems
fraught with misunderstanding).

Regards,

M. Suleiman

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Frisian

Dear Lowlanders,

I have gathered all of Muhammed's posting in one issue because it's only on the
edge of dealing with more than one subject.  (Remember, folks: only one topic
per submission!)  If this starts a discussion that developes into separate
threads like "Frisian" and "Ingvaeonic," please keep them separate.  Thanks.

Muhammed, as you probably know, most people mean Westerlauwer Frisian of the
Netherlands (outside the Netherlands usually called "West Frisian," mistakenly
so as far as Netherlanders are concerned) when they say "Frisian."  This is
except for most Germans, who tend to think first of the varieties used in
*their* country (Sater Frisian and the various continental and insular North
Frisian varieties), some of which may be argued to be separate languages. ( It's
a bit like seeing Turkish as the representative of all Turkic languages because
of the state of Turkey -- but, oops! that would lead us back east.)

One of several fascinating features of Westerlauwer Frisian is k-palatalization
before front vowels, usually k- > ts-, thus _tsiis_ 'cheese' (cf. Dutch _kaas_,
Low Saxon _kees'_).  I believe this shows up in some form or other in the other
Frisian varieties also, though I am not sure.  We have some Frisianists on this
list, and they will no doubt tell us.

(Incidentally, this phenomenon exists in Low Saxon (Low German) also,
specifically in Mennonite Low Saxon (Plautdietsch): k- > kj- ~ tj- before front
vowels.  I am not sure if this is a Frisianism, Slavic influence or a
sporadically developed thing.)

Yes, I think it was Greek _frisoi_, and _frisii_ was Latin.  I've never read any
of those old accounts, only found references to them scattered throughout
introductory material about Frisian.

By the way, we have a nice little Frisian interest reading list at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1615/rhahn/lowlands/frisian_offline.htm.  It
considers all Frisian varieties and groups the publications accordingly.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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