LL-L: "Etymology" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 28.AUG.1999 (05)

[Sandy Fleming]

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From: Urban Lindqvist [urban.lindqvist at telia.com]
Subject: "Etymology"

> From: [gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu]
> Subject: "Etymology"
>
> It would appear to me more likely that 'buan' is related to
> Scandinavian 'bo' (live, dwell).
>
> From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
> Subject: "Etymology"
>
> These seem remarkably similar to the word for "live" in Welsh (a Celtic
> language): "byw" [bju:], which I assume must be related to the Gaelic
> equivalent "beatha" (as in "uisge beatha" - water of life). Ancient
> etymology?

The Celtic words don't belong here. "beatha"/"beathu" is based on the Gaelic
equivalent to "byw", Old Irish "bo, bu" (Mod. Ir.?), which is a direct
continuation of Proto-Indo-European *g{w}ih{3}o- ("{ }" indicates super- and
subscript respectively), i.e. the same word as Latin "vivus", English
"quick",
Greek "zo:on", etc.

Urban


From: Urban Lindqvist [urban.lindqvist at telia.com]
Subject: "Etymology"

I wrote:

> The Celtic words don't belong here. "beatha"/"beathu" is based on the
Gaelic
> equivalent to "byw", Old Irish "bo, bu" (Mod. Ir.?), which is a direct
> continuation of Proto-Indo-European *g{w}ih{3}o- ("{ }" indicates super-
and
> subscript respectively), i.e. the same word as Latin "vivus", English
"quick",
> Greek "zo:on", etc.

Sorry, I meant *g{w}ih{3}wo-, of course.

Urban


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: "Etymology" (was "Phonology")

Muhammed wrote:

> Henno said :

> " I can post a summary of the phonology later, if you like..."

> Yes, that would be very interesting. You describe the word _boi_ as
> being 'bookish', is there any evidence that it was formerly more
common?
> _jonge_, seems likely to be a more recent introduction, as in Dutch
and
> High German.

Isn't this _boi_ related to older Frisian _baai_?  I vaguely remember
the apparently oldest surviving Frisian ballad beginning with (pardon my
spelling) ...

A redder tred un a dans med a baai
A baai a redder alik

My (poor?) translation:
The knight joined the dance [along] with ("the boy") his valet
The valet resembling the knight
(or: The valet (seeming) like a knight)

The noun _boy_ also had the meaning of 'servant', 'valet' or 'attendant'
in Middle English.

Does Swedish _pojke_ (and its Finnish derivative _poika_) have anything
to do with it?  (Any connection with Low Saxon diminutive _-ke_?)

> Apparently, there is a Low Saxon word _go"r_, meaning 'a young boy',
or
> 'a young girl'.

In Modern Low Saxon (Low German), _G{o"}{o"}r_ (~ _G{o"}r_) means
'child', not necessarily 'young' or 'small', usually with a pejorative
ring to it, much like 'brat' (though less frequently so than in
Missingsch [i.e., German varieties with Low Saxon substrates] and in
Northern German).  This distinguishes it from _Kind_.

> The androgynous character of the word is interesting,
> because the word _girl_, which seems to be attested comparatively
late,
> used to refer to a child of either sex in English too.

The _Oxford Dictionary_ suspects that it is a cognate of Low Saxon
_g{o"}r_ (with diminutive _-l_, I assume).

> I would like to know if anyone (perhaps one for Ron?) could confirm
the
> existence and significance of the word in Low Saxon, and I would be
> especially interested to know if any possible cognates exist in
Frisian
> speech varieties.

I am not sure if there are Frisian cognates, and if there are any, if
they are true cognates or LS loans -- or the other way around.

As I said above, in Modern Low Saxon the word may refer to a child of
either sex, and it is of neuter gender (_dat G{o"}{o"}r_ 'the child',
'the brat').  There are good indications that it used to refer to girls
only, originally as _g{o"}re_ with feminine gender (_de g{o"}re_ 'the
girl').  It tends to be considered derived from a defunct adjective:
_*g{o^}r_ 'small', which has the Old High German derivative _g{o^}rag_
and the Middle High German _g{o^}rec_ 'small', 'insignificant',
'pitiable'.  Thus, as also indicated by _Wicht_ in East Friesland Low
Saxon, a girl used to be seen as being small, insignificant, pitiable
...  Apparently, this original meaning came to be lost, and _g{o"}r(e)_
came to be used to refer to all small children.  What is very
interesting is the coexistence of feminine gender _G{o"}re_ (well-known
in Germany in the form of the Berlin Missingsch version _die J{o"}hre_)
and neuter gender _G{o"}({o"})r_, though both seem to have the same
meaning.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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