LL-L: "Meals" (was "Etymology") [E] LOWLANDS-L, 27.JUL.1999 (01)

Tue Jul 27 15:52:38 UTC 1999

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From: Edwin Michael Alexander [edsells at wwwebcity.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 26.JUL.1999 (01)

In Reply to: Dale Nicklas [dnicklas at sirinet.net]
>Subject: Dinner and Supper

>My family always had breakfast, lunch and supper. Dinner was a big meal, a
>special meal, and could be either at lunch or supper. For example, Sunday
dinner
>was at noon after church; you would never have called this "Sunday lunch"
>because you had fried chicken, mashptatusngravy, and other special fare.
But you
>might instead go to the Old South Cafeteria for lunch after church. You
invited
>people over for dinner, not supper, although if they dropped in you might ask
>them to stay for supper.
>
>On the other hand there were families that had breakfast, lunch and
dinner, and
>others that had breakfast, dinner, and supper, depending on when the big
meal of
>the day fell. So when someone said "dinner," you had to clarify.
>
>This may reflect the fact that this part of Oklahoma was settled by people
from
>various regions of the South (particularly Arkansas and Texas, but also
Missouri
>and other regions). At any rate, it suggests that Southern usage was not
>uniform.

Well, I hate to tell you this, but this general use of the words "lunch",
"supper" and "dinner" is pretty general around North America as far as I
can tell.  Your description fits exactly the usage I grew up with around
Chicago, the one I found in use when I lived in Boston and Vermont and
Philadelphia, and the one currently used here among people in southern
Ontario, Canada.  So while what you serve may vary, and when you serve it,
the name of the repast is identical.

Forgive me for digressing from the Lowlands field, but I cannot help but be
reminded of the famous exchange of notes between Friedrich II and Voltaire.
 You'll have to know French to decipher this:

Friedrich, writing to Voltaire:       p                                 ci
                                                        ___               a
         _____
                                                       venez
          sans

Voltaire, in reply:                         J         a

Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-545-0177  Fax: 905-525-6671 Email: edsells at wwwebcity.com
Jag Realty Inc.: http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/
Ontario Ultra Series:  http://www.connection.com/~esmond/ouser.html
Burlington Runners Club: http://www.deerhurst.com/brc/

----------

From: $ Elsie Zinsser [ezinsser at simpross.co.za]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 26.JUL.1999 (01)

Hi, all!

Bob Stockman [bsman at iserv.net] wrote
Regards supper, which is what we called the evening meal in northern
Germany and in the rural Low German communities in the states.  Perhaps
the evening meal was primarily gruel or soup, out of a common bowl.
Then possibly
"soup" or "suppen" as we call it in Low German had something to do with
the evening meal becoming "supper".  And then again, maybe not.

Yes, here down south my grandmother referred to the evening meal in
Afrikaans as 'sopper' and I assumed as child that it came from the
English 'supper'. Nowadays we refer to the meal as "aandete". It is now
mostly the main meal of the day in cities.

In rural areas the main meal is still eaten at noon; allowing all and
sundry siestas during the afternoon heat. The rural evening meal would
consist of soup that had cooked the whole day (winter fare) or, if
you're lucky, cinnamon sugared pancakes, "melkkos"  or simply bread and
glorious fig jam with a spoonful cream, fresh from the separator.

Dale Nicklas says that his <Sunday dinner was at noon after church; you
would never have called this "Sunday lunch">

Yes, here it is almost an extension of church: The zealous cooking and
glorious digging in to be followed by the ritual of the pudding. We
still call it "Sondagete" for the few and far between big midday ones
when something needs to be celebrated. It has, for most parts, lost its
social function although many city and rural baby boomers still cling to
the habit.

Regards!

Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Etymology

Bob Stockman wrote:
>Regards supper, which is what we called the evening meal in northern
Germany
> and in the rural Low German communities in the states.  Perhaps the
evening
> meal was primarily gruel or soup, out of a common bowl.  Then possibly
> "soup" or "suppen" as we call it in Low German had something to do with
the
> evening meal becoming "supper".  And then again, maybe not.

The ultimate origin of the word is Low Latin "suppa",  whose meaning is
preserved in E "sop" (a sop for Cereberus, milksop) - bread soaked in some
kind of nutritious liquid. Since it was medieval custom to serve all sorts
of food on a trencher (probably half a flat loaf, possibly hollowed out into
a bowl) it is possible to imagine the word developing a wider scope. On the
other hand one could imagine one of those Anglo-Norman-style distinctions
(sheep/mutton, ox/beef, calf/veal, pig/pork) in which the top dogs had
"diner" on their trenchers and the servants got the middle of the loaf as
the basis of their "souper".

Thanks to this discussion I have (possibly) finally understood the true
significance of the Italian name "zuppa inglese" for the British delicacy
"trifle". It's not the supernatant fruit but the solid substrate which
accounts for the name.

Dale Nicklas mentioned eating "mashptatusngravy" at church dinners. He
reminded me that on British Rail trains one used to be offered "summer
veetch" as a vegetable accompaniment to the meat.

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Meals

Dear Lowlanders,

In Northern Germany, meal traditions vary from region to region.  The main meal
of the day, a warm one, is still by and large lunch: Low Saxon (Low German)
_Middag_ ['mIdaX]  (~ _Meddag_ ~ _Meddig_), a.k.a. _Middagseten_ or
_Middagsköst_ ~ _Middagskost_.  In some regions, _Middag_ can denote any main
meal, irrespective of the time of day.  Only on formal occasions may a major
meal be served in the evening, such as when having guests over, and I believe
that this is a "modern" custom.  Otherwise a lighter meal is eaten in the
evening: _Avendbroot_ or _Avendköst_ ~ _Avendkost_, usually consisting of
various types of sandwiches (mostly of the open kind), much akin to the Danish
_smørrebrød_, traditionally using the more substantial, dark types of bread
containing rye, such as _Swattbroot_ ~ _Groffbroot_, served with ham, cheese,
fish, pickles, mayonnaise-based salads, etc.  I don't think there is a North
German equivalent to the English 'supper' in the sense of a second, lighter
evening snack.  However, there may be regional varieties of this, which I would
be interested to know about.  The traditional evening meal tends to be very
similar to the traditional morning meal: _Fröhstück_ ['fr9IstYk] ~ ['frOIstYk],
_Fröhköst_ ~ _Fröhkost_ ~ _Fruhkost_.  A light mid-afternoon snack, equivalent
to English 'tea(time)', tends to consist of coffee and baked goods: _Koffie_ ~
_Kaffe(e)_ ['kafe] ~ _Koffje_ or _Vesper_ ['fEspV].  In most East Frisian areas
the drink of choice is tea, of course, and I believe the terminology is
different there.

Of course, many of you will have noticed that the Low Saxon terminology
described above is akin to that in Danish: _frøkost_, _middag_, etc.  I assume
that this is a case of Low Saxon (Low German) borrowing in Danish.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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