LL-L: "Language confusion" [D/E] LOWLANDS-L, 27.JUL.1999 (05)

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From: Roger Thijs [Roger.Thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language confusion" [D/E] LOWLANDS-L, 27.JUL.1999 (02)

At 08:57 AM 7/27/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
>Subject: Languageconfusion

>I'm not entirely sure that I understand the whole context of the original
>point. Is it being suggested that Vlaams should be an official EC language,
>or that it should be one of the working languages? (I have read that 40% of
>Brussels bureaucrats are there to provide translation and interpretation
>services. The numbers are as low as this because the Irish, for instance, do
>not claim the right to use Erse/Irish/Irish Gaelic and some countries where
>English is well understood (eg Denmark) waive the right to use their own,
>official language in technical committees.)

Dutch is an official EC language. In Straatsburg one mistakenly labeled the
knob for the Dutch translation as "Flemish". It made some Dutch European
parliament members mad.

>I should be grateful for clarification of this. In my work I have translated
>serious articles from Belgian newspapers which contain
>idioms which do not appear in the Van Dale Groot Woordenboeken, either N-N
>or N-E. I have had to translate them word for word into French and look them
>up in a French dictionary. Thus the differences between ABN and "Vlaams"
>seem to me to be greater than a matter of "accent", or even an occasional
>dialect usage.

What you describe is generally considered to be incorrect Dutch. Much of it
has not very much to do with Dutch, but is rather due to contamination by
government officials, being bilingual to some extent, and mutilating as
well Dutch as French. Curiously official translations into German are
generally of good quality. (These are generally done by the translation
office at Malmedy)
Recently in the "Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsbad" there is shown more
attention for correct language usage, reflected in long lists of
corrections to the original drafts of particularely the Dutch versions of
law/decree proposals.

As to Flemish, there is quite a lot of confusion. it can as well refer to:

- 1 - in the 19th century, the French designation ("Flamand") for all
lowland languages from Dunkerque to Königsberg, since, for them, it was the
generic name of the language of the former French fief of Flanders (cf. the
publications by Delcourt in the beginning of that century), later of the
"Flandre flaminguante" (Westhoek), part of their département du Nord.
I think "Néerlandais" is a terrible word for French people to pronounce.
Who would like to replace "Dutch" by "Netherlandish"?

- 2 - referring to the new region in the North of Belgium, called
"Vlaanderen", and covering the provinces of "West Vlaanderen", "Oost
Vlaanderen", "Antwerpen", "Vlaams Brabant", "Limburg", where it may be one
of the following:

2.0 - rather correct Dutch, but with some elements that make it easy to
recognize the speaker as coming from the South. (cf. BRT- now VRT- Dutch,
the Dutch of the television newsreaders in Northern Belgium)

2.1 - incorrect Dutch as described above sub 1

2.2 - incorrect Dutch unintentionally contaminated by some regional
expressions or vocabulary, to a variable degree

2.3 - intentionally regionalised Dutch, often called "Verkavelingsvlaams"
(as opposed to "Poldernederlands") especially spoken by those who do not
care about a common Dutch standard (it is often judged to be a compensation
for the disappearance of the dialects, especially in newly parcelized
habitated area's, "verkavelingen")

2.4 - strongly regionalised Dutch, used in TV soap series. The
regionalization tone is rarely Flemish, but mostly Brabantish (Antwerp),
however commercially monitored to include only vocabulary that is
understandable by most in the North of Belgium

3. The group of dialects spoken in the Westhoek (France, Nord),
West-Vlaanderen (Belgium), Oost-Vlaanderen (Belgium) and Zeeuws Vlaanderen
(Zeeland, Netherlands). This describes also the area covered by the volumes
of the dictionary of Flemish vocabulary, still in process at Ghent
university. (about 20 volumes published by Michiels, Tongeren, B)

The group is opposed in the South to the dialect groups of:

Brabantish (Vlaams Brabant and Antwerpen, Belgium; Noord-Brabant, Netherlands)
Limburgish (Limburg, Belgium; Limburg, Netherlands) (Limburgish is though
recognized as a regional "language" in the Netherlands since a couple of
years)
As well the Brabantish as also the Limburgish dictionary are both in
development at the university of Nijmegen in the Netherlands; for both
groups about 15-20 volumes have been published (Publisher for both series:
Van Gorcum, Assen, Nl)

A couple of elements that mark the distinction:
- "e" suffix to femine words, in Flemish only:
 Flemish: moedere
- two paticle negation, in (West-) Flemish only: "en ... niet"
- "ich" for "ik" personal pronoun in Limburgish only.
- "gij" for the second person in Brabantish (even in Kleve, Niederrhein,
Germany)
  "je" in (West) Flanders
  "dzje, du, dich" forms in Limburgian
- bitonality in Limburgian
- plural by Umlaut in Limburgian:
 boom, buim (tree);
 ho-es, hais (house);
 mo-es - mais (mouse)...
- vocabulary, e.g.
 Flemish:  stuut: sandwich
 Limburgian: kalle: speak

Back to Dutch in Belgium.

French was the prominent language of quite some cultivated people in the
North of Belgium in the middle of last century. The "low german"
('Nederduytsch', 'Dietsch', 'Plat' etc.) speakers have been fighting for a
position of their language, and promoted 'Dutch' as koiné.
The qualification "Flemish" has been used by some politicians defending the
promotion of French, for describing the poor people's language in the North
as a "collection of dialects" and no "language" at all (not worthy to get
an official status).
So, some Flemish people feel that statements as that they speak "Flemish"
as offensive. They feel it as a equivalent to saying "that they are even
not able to speak their own koiné".

A second political element is, now that Northern Belgium is an autonomous
region, the linguistic slave relation to the Netherlands is disappearing,
and this gives quite some reluctance to accept any influence of
"Randstad"-colored Dutch.
This is somehow offset by a quite strong migration of Dutch people to
Northern Belgium (preserving their accent and expressions), the presence of
Dutch people in downtown commerce in the South ...
I'm actually doing a project in the Limburgian Maas valley, at the Belgian
side. Blue collars are as well Belgians from the Maaseik area, as Dutchmen
from the Sittard area. The common floor area spoken language is obviously
Limburgish. The more formal language is Dutch (some days alternating with
German). Curiously the Belgians over there easier accept Randstand elements
in their Dutch, no doubt immitating the Dutch Limburgians.

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: Pepijn Hendriks [pepijnh at bigfoot.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language confusion" [D/E] LOWLANDS-L, 27.JUL.1999 (02)

Hallo Roger,

>Wat wel is ingeburgerd, is een aparte filmondertiteling in Belgisch
>Nederlands voor de filmdistributie in België. Ik kreeg enige maanden
>geleden hiervoor nog een vraag uit Parijs. Dit is geen grap, noch
>misverstand, maar een bewuste commerciële benadering.

Hier kan ik me wel iets bij voorstellen.

Het is vanzelfsprekend dat hoe informeler het register is, hoe groter de
verschillen tussen Nederlands Nederlands en Vlaams Nederlands zullen
blijken te zijn. En dit verschil zal dus ook in de ondertiteling opvallen.
En dat kan een storende werking hebben.

Het is met ondertiteling en nasynchronisatie maar net waar je aan gewend
bent: niemand zal het in zijn hoofd halen om een tekenfilm uit de
Disneystal voor de Britse markt in te laten spreken door Britse acteurs.
Hetzelfde gebeurt wel voor de Braziliaanse en de Portugese markt. (Ik moet
overigens bekennen dat ik niet weet of er in België aparte versies van
Disney-films geproduceerd worden. :o/ .)

Geconfronteerd met deze verschillen kun je denk ik twee dingen doen: één
versie produceren, waar zowel voor de een als de ander 'vreemde' elementen
inzitten, maar waardoor je de mensen aan elkaars variëteiten gewend laat
raken, óf voor de beide markten verschillende versies maken. Het jammere
van die tweede oplossing is dat de taalgemeenschappen alleen maar nog
verder van elkaar vervreemd raken: de taalgebruikers richten zich dan
vooral op de eigen gemeenschap, in plaats van op de gemeenschappelijke band
die je hebt door dezelfde taal.

Het eerste is nauwelijks realiseerbaar, vrees ik. Ondertitels voor series
worden door de vertaalafdelingen van de Nederlandse en Vlaamse omroepen
altijd zelf geproduceerd, in plaats van dat ze reeds voorhanden ondertitels
'lenen' bij de ander en deze aanpassen waar nodig. (Hier zullen ook wel
logistieke oorzaken achter zitten.) Verder ben ik bang dat vooral de
Nederlanders niet aan Vlaamse elementen willen in hun ondertiteling. Dat is
de -- voor mijn gevoel vooral in de Randstad sterk tot uitdrukking komende
-- arrogantie wat het Nederlands betreft.

Een voorbeeld van deze Randstedelijke houding is een recente
televisie-reclame van McDonald's voor hun tijdelijke Snoopy-menu. De
reclame toont een gezin dat door de polders fietst en waar één van de
koters om een 'snoepie'. Waarop moeder geïrriteerd zegt dat dat plat is en
dat het 'snoepje' moet zijn. Voor mij -- ik ben in Brabant opgegroeid --
was het geheel nieuw dat 'boekie' en 'snoepie' bij wijze van spreken met
stokslagen werden bestraft. Deze woorden zijn voor mij niet plat maar
Randstads. Als er bij ons thuis al iets werd afgekeurd als plat, dan was
dat 'boekske'. De geschetste situatie zal mensen buiten de Randstad niet
bekend voorkomen, waarom ik het een erg slechte reclame vind.

Een laatste opmerking die ik nog zou willen maken is dat in
Nederlandstalige films van de afgelopen jaren ('Karakter', 'Antonia')
Vlaamse en Nederlandse acteurs door elkaar optreden. De verschilen in
uitspraak vallen in dialogen vooral erg op. De kijker wordt impliciet
verzocht deze verschillen te negeren. Dit valt me erg moeilijk, aangezien
een Vlaams accent voor mij een Vlaamse setting inhoudt, en een Nederlands
accent een Nederlandse. En met elke zin moet je daar weer tussen omschakelen.

-Pepijn

--
 pepijnh at bigfoot.com -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~pepijnh -- ICQ - 6033220

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