LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 03.NOV.1999 (02) [E]

Wed Nov 3 16:21:24 UTC 1999

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From: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 02.NOV.1999 (08) [E]

> From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
> Subject: Etymology
>  > There is an English word "mucker" meaning a best friend or comrade.
> I
> recall it in a film about the RAF (Sean Connery played a
> feeble-minded
> but hunky gypsy) so it may be service slang. Chambers Dictionary
> lists
> it under the headword "muck", but from your example this doesn't
> look
> very convincing.
>
> The Penguin Dictionary of Historical Slang doesn't give this
> meaning
> (presumably because it's still current) but has "mucker" = "army
> quartermaster" (ca 1885-1910).

I've been watching this thread with interest but without getting
ideas until John Feather's message above. This rang a loud bell!

*THE* common English phrase (in UK English at any rate) is to "muck
in", i.e. to join in with others in doing something (with no presumptions
as to what it may be -- there is no suggestion that the activity is
in any way messy or unpleasant).

E.g. The Boss may say "I've just heard we have to get this Report
out by Friday. If we all muck in we should just about manage it."

(Incidentally, this example illustrates the strongly egalitarian
sense of this meaning: if The Boss mucks in himself, it means he
will be rolling up his sleeves and taking on part of the practical
requirements of the job, along with everyone else).

Chambers' 20th C English Dictionary gives this interpretation under
"muck" as:

muck in (with) (colloquial) to share with, to help, participate (in).

It gives the overall etymology of "muck" as

[Prob. Scand.; cf. ON. myki, Dan. mög, = dung]

However, as this thread has been suggesting, this kind of sense of
"muck" -- i.e. grouping with other people -- may well not be the same
word at all originally.

This reminds me of "mess", as in "Officers' Mess", "messing with"
(in the sense of sharing eating arrangements with). Again, there is
no suggestion of the dirt sense of "mess", which in this case seems to
have arisen later than the original sense (the etymology in this case
being from the Latin mittere->missum, which also gave rise to English
"Mass" in the religious service sense, this being in French "messe",
and in Church Latin "Missa". Incidentally, the French analogue of
"Mess Room" in the military sense would be "le mess" or "la salle de
mess", which to me suggests that "mess" may have been re-imported
into French from English military usage.)

In fact I'm now wondering how "mess" in the sense of dirt or disorder
came about.

I'm also now pondering why we have two apparently independent words,
"muck" and "mess", which both have a meaning of people grouping
together or sharing, and both have a meaning of dirt or disorder.

Is this just a coincidence?

Best wishes to all,
Ted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: 03-Nov-99                                       Time: 12:19:48
------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Ted!

Thanks for your contribution to this thread (above).  You wrote:

> However, as this thread has been suggesting, this kind of sense of
> "muck" -- i.e. grouping with other people -- may well not be the same
> word at all originally.

I absolutely agree.  Please remember the various shades of meaning of related
words in various languages:

> Standard Danish:
> _makker_ 'comrade', 'partner'
>
> Low Saxon (Low German), North Saxon:
> _Mack_ 'comfort', 'convenience', 'ease', 'relaxation'
> _mack_ 'easy to control', 'harmless', 'docile', 'tame'
> _mack(e)lig_ 'comfortable', 'convenient', 'easy', 'relaxed'
> _Macker_ 'comrade', 'partner', 'supporter', 'friend', 'ringleader'
>
> Dutch:
> _gemak_ 'ease', 'comfort'
> _(ge-)makkelijk_ 'easy', 'comfortable'
> _gemakkelijkheid_ 'ease', 'comfort'
> _mak_ 'easy to control', 'harmless', 'docile', 'tame'
> _makker_ 'comrade', 'companion'
>
> Afrikaans:
> _gemak_ 'ease', 'comfort' (and several derivations)
> _(ge)maklik_ 'easy', 'comfortable'
> _(ge)maklikheid_ 'ease', 'comfort'
> _mak_ 'easy to control', 'harmless', 'docile', 'tame'
> _makheid_ 'ease of control', 'harmlessness', 'docility'
>
> Westerlauwer Frisian:
> _maklik_ 'easy', 'convenient'
>
> Scots:
> _ma(c)k_ 'neat', 'tidy'
> _makly_ 'evenly'

> Apparently, there *is* a connection with /maak-/ 'to make' (Low Saxon,
Dutch,
> Afrikaans /maak-/, English _make_, W. Frisian _meitsje_, Scots _mak_ or
_make_ <
> IE *_mag^-_ 'to knead') with the original meaning 'to put together', 'to
make
> fit', 'to make suitable', 'to make proper', 'to put right'.  (So, 'suitable'
>
> 'convenient' > 'easy'/'proper' may be the crucial connection between all
items
> here.)

I think that there is a strong current of the idea of "fitting (in)" and
"comforming," so the meaning of (I think non-American) "to muck in" would fit
very nicely, namely "to fit into a team and pitch in."  The Low Saxon
adjective _mack_ tends to be used to describe a horse's or another type of
draft animal's cooperative (vs obstinate) nature or behavior, being a good
member of a team of animals; e.g., _Dütt Peerd is orrig mack_ 'This horse is
very easy to handle'.

Of course there is the interesting problem of the <u> in these English words,
for in cognates we ought to expect <a>.  Could this be because these "muck"
words started as (1) loanwords into English dialects that realize short <u> as
[V] rather than as [U], or (2) became contaminated by the already existing
English words "muck" and "to muck", or (3) both?

You asked:

> In fact I'm now wondering how "mess" in the sense of dirt or disorder
> came about.

We discussed this group of words on LL-L a long time ago.  Apparently, "mess"
in the sense of dirt and disorder is related to Dutch _mest_, Low Saxon _Mest_
~ _Mess_ ~ _Mist_ ~ _Miss_, German _Mist_, etc., all meaning 'animal waste'.
So it's separate from the word "mess" < Latin _missa_.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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